Should US wealth be redistributed?

[cercis]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Brandon, I'm confused about your morality statement.

Many people who are not religious are moral.

Many people who do not go on and on about their morality are moral.

In fact, chances are the most moral people will never tell you they are moral. They will talk about "ethics" and "feelings". You will notice them (if you open your eyes to it) by their thoughtful approach to life. By the way they carefully consider all the ramifications of their actions. You'll see them agonizing over the way they spend their money "do I spend it with merchant x who has been proven to take advantage of the little guy or with merchant y who is a bit more expensive?".

[sweeps]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Many people who are not religious are moral.

Many people who do not go on and on about their morality are moral.

[M]ost moral people will never tell you they are moral.

Hear, hear!

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I believe everyone on the planet has morals. Hitler had morals (even though the legitimacy and intent of those morals is fairly easily debatable). With that said, some of us seam to rank "morality" higher on our list of priorities than others. For example, if abortion lowered the crime rate, I'm all for abortion. I don't care about the "morality" of the issue. Other's would rather illegalize abortion at any cost. Maybe it's an issue of simply different morals. Either way, I hope my statements in my previous post weren't misconstrued. The topic off hand was not morality.

My point was that people vote with their $$$. Take a look at your hometown. Look at all the extravagant government buildings. Look around at all the extravagant churches. Add the cost for all this aesthetically pleasing wastes and then compare that to the amount of money spent on pregnant women nutrition, safe houses, and various needed social programs. In my home town, it's clear what is more important to the citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandondrury
With that said, if you want to improve your situation, the situation is simple. Work harder, smarter, and work longer.

Unfortunately, “Work harder, smarter, and work longer” has very little to do with it.

Oh. Well thanks for clearing that up with supporting evidence. You've changed my mind on the subject and you may have even enlightened some casual readers of this forum. Thank you.

If you weren't certain, I'm being entirely sarcastic. VJW, I find your views to be entirely defeatist. Maybe you don't even feel like you can get ahead so you'd rather discuss how it's impossible to get ahead in our system than get out there and get your hands dirty. I'll be the first to admit that it's not easy to succeed. I'm nowhere near where I'd like to be, but I'm going to keep busting my tail until I get there. And I will get there.

I'd love to see a study on self made millionaires. I'm curious how many of them didn't use the "work harder, smarter, and work longer" concept. You are aware that very poor people from the worst living conditions have risen up to become extremely successful individuals, right?

Brandon

[VJW]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

If you weren't certain, I'm being entirely sarcastic. VJW, I find your views to be entirely defeatist.

Realistic is not “defeatist”.

Maybe you don't even feel like you can get ahead so you'd rather discuss how it's impossible to get ahead in our system than get out there and get your hands dirty.

No, I simply prefer realism to fantasy.

I'd love to see a study on self made millionaires. I'm curious how many of them didn't use the "work harder, smarter, and work longer" concept.

As has been mentioned elsewhere in these forums, past studies of those on the Forbes 400 Richest People list have shown that some 86% have either directly inherited their fortunes or have had great advantage because of their families wealth.

And as I’ve posted previously, does that prevent someone from being a “self made millionaire” as you put it ?

OF COURSE NOT.

Does it and has it happened ?

OF COURSE IT HAS.

However, (and here is where my realism, which you somehow have twisted into “defeatism” comes into play) the reality is this:

IT IS NOT HOW THE VAST OVERWHELMING MAJORITY HAVE DONE IT.

It is that simple.

#

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Fair enough.

If you don't feel like you can't get ahead, I believe you. Henry Ford once said "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right".

Personally, I know that I will meet my goals (if I don't have a heart attack first) if I keep pushing ahead. The reason that I continue to push hard is because I know that I can earn my way out of the situation I was born into by creating enough valuable services for other people. At the moment, I'm not using any heat in my snow covered home except for the space heater beside my computer here. I do this because I live in a system that will allow me to move up if I'm smart with my money now.

Maybe some dude was born into money. I'm not sure how that effects me or you at all. Does that give them an unfair advantage? It depends on the race you are running and you specific goals. If you want to run an already established Fortune 500 company you have your work cut out for you. If you want to retire at 35, the silver spoon kid doesn't effect you at all. What do I care about Heinz and Microsoft?

Maybe you and I have seen different things. My grandpa's brothers started out in a shack. They used to nail egg crates to the walls to block the cold wind from getting in the home. They say you could see cracks through the walls. 5 of those brothers are worth a combined total about a little over a billion dollars right now. Their secret was working harder, smarter, and longer.

I'm too distant to see any direct financial benefit from my relatives, but I'm close enough to know that someone with relatively similar genetics to myself can go on to do great things.

It all comes down to motivation. Those only thing that motivates people is motivation. If you take that away, the whole system falls apart. Socialism and communism don't seam to have done so well. Maybe you don't suggest making such an extreme change, but I simply can't see how it's positive to move anywhere near that direction. I know when you take away my motivation, I'm just going to do like everyone else and start watching TV and see how fat I can get in 3 weeks.

Brandno

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

IT IS NOT HOW THE VAST OVERWHELMING MAJORITY HAVE DONE IT

VJW, what exactly do you mean by "done it?" Done what? I don't like when you spout this statistic showing the Forbes 400 b/c I feel like that's one extreme end of a whole spectrum of people.

Unless by "done it" you mean made the Forbes 400 - then I totally agree.

But I see "done it" for me personally as meaning I'm worth a million, not including the equity in my primary residence. I think your 86% falls apart there when you lower the standard of what "done it" means.

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

On another note: for anyone new to the forums wishing to square off with VJW, you might want to first do a search on what he has already written, so he doesn't have to write (and we don't have to read) it again.

[VJW]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

If you don't feel like you can't get ahead

I never wrote that.

It all comes down to motivation.

Actually, it doesn’t, and the percentages prove that quite well.

Socialism and communism don't seam to have done so well.

Typical ‘Straw Man’ argument.

Maybe you don't suggest making such an extreme change, but I simply can't see how it's positive to move anywhere near that direction.

I don’t know of anyone who has advocated such a “direction”.

#

[VJW]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

VJW, what exactly do you mean by "done it?" Done what?

Well, I was responding to the “self made millionaire” concept.

I don't like when you spout this statistic showing the Forbes 400 b/c I feel like that's one extreme end of a whole spectrum of people.

What other data set would you have had me utilize to respond to a statement regarding millionaires ?

#

[jmjj215]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

What other data set would you have had me utilize to respond to a statement regarding millionaires ?

Something besides the wealthiest 400 in America (how many billionaires are on there? On Forbes.com, 2003 data shows 244). I think I remember you writing off Stanley's Millionaire Next Door as a source that isn't usable? That's kind of the source I was thinking.

• Only 19 percent receive any income or wealth of any kind from a trust fund or an estate.
• Fewer than 20 percent inherited 10 percent of more of their wealth.
• More than half never received $1 in in inheritance.
• Fewer than 25 percent ever received "an act of kindness" of $10,000 or more from their parents, grandparents, or other relatives.
• Ninety-one percent never received, as a gift, as much as $1 of the ownership in a family business.
• Nearly half never received any college tuition from their parents or other relatives.
• Fewer than 10 percent believe they will ever receive an inheritance in the future.

With the Forbes 400, sure I'll bite. But with these self-made millionaires, it appears that other factors played a large role.

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I wrote, "It all comes down to motivation"

Actually, it doesn’t, and the percentages prove that quite well.

What percentages? What's your source? If you really think that motivation doesn't impact work ethic, intensity, and progress than ....well.... I have nothing to say. Everything we do in life stems from motivation of some sort. I haven't been this awstricken since I debated with a person who insisted that smell could be music.


According to http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/15/pf/millionaires/ there are 2.3 million millionaires in the country. That boils down to 1 out of ever 125 people.

You never stated your motivation or goals, but it appears that jmjj215 and myself have stated that our goals are significantly less than making the Forbes 400 list and that is why we think our goals are obtainable. What are your goals?

My goal is to crack that millionaire list. 1 out 125 people doesn't seam to be too bad of odds if you ask me.

I've grown tired of your one line sentences that in no way counter my claims with any evidence what so ever. So I will not comment any further on issues that you obviously do not want to discuss. Emotion based logic is often tough to prove with numbers. I sympathize.

Brandon

[retire@50]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I wonder if the re-distribution crowd would feel the same way if they were the one's who earned the money and had it forceably taken from them. Life is unfair and poverty sucks, but so does penalizing people who work hard for their money, who create new things, who come up with good ideas, who create art or who have special skills, such as sports abilities.

Why don't we redistribute beauty. Let's make people like Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt pay a tax for their looks. They didn't earn those looks, they were born with them. That's not fair, they should have to pay for their good fortune. I mean after all they don't do anything to get those looks, like eat right and exercize and take care of themselves. Besides everyone knows they only get acting jobs because of their looks, it's not like they can really act.

While we're at it let's redistribute sport's abilities. It's not fair that Michelle Kwan is such a good skater. My niece wants to ice skate let's make Michelle pay for her lessons, after all it's only fair that she shares her good luck. I mean it's not like she worked hard to develop her skating ability. Besides she earns lots of money, she should have to share.

Obviously I'm being sarcastic. There's a lot of generalizations on this thread. All poor people do this, all rich people do that etc. The fact is rich and poor are relative. The majority of the poor people in America are rich by the standards of other countries. CEOs are judged against other CEOs, they are not judged against entry-level workers in a company.

Poverty may be temporarily relieved by money, but unless you add knowledge on how to manage and use money, as well as knowledge on making good life choices, it's only a short-term bandaid. I don't believe there is a long-term solution to poverty, regardless of how you re-distribute life's goodies, someone will always have more and someone will always have less. You would have to constantly re-distribute the wealth as it fluctuates.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't give to charities and help out when they see a need. It means there isn't a global solution and forceably taking money from one person to give to another person is wrong. Even if that is the governments main reason for existing.

[brandondrury]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I agree 100%, retire@50.

I love your signature. I've been something similar for years. Mine goes "Money may not by happiness, but being broke doesn't buy happiness either".

Brandon

[abowers]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

I agree COMPLETELY with retire@50.

[sweeps]

Re: Should US wealth be redistributed?

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse here, but if you folks are truly against wealth redistribution, then that means you're in favor of eliminating:

1. Social security (Both SSI and SSD)
2. Medicare, Medicaid, and all other medical and drug assistance programs
3. Progressive tax structure
a. This means no tax brackets. Everyone pays, say, 30% of their income in taxes.
b. This also means absolutely no deductions or credits that phase out based on income. No child or earned income tax credits, for example.
4. No welfare, food stamps, Public Aid, free or reduced lunches in schools, etc. -- at all.
5. No subsidized loans for education, starting a business, buying a home, or for any other purpose.

And there's probably more I'm not thinking of. If you can't work for enough income to survive, that's your problem.

Is that really what you want?