Worth doing?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I'm debating replacing the heat pumps in my house. Background, we have a 3 story townhouse with a furnace in the attic. It's not efficient to heat the bottom living floor, so there are heat pumps. A couple of years ago we installed a gas fireplace and it's nice, but it doesn't do the kitchen.

In 2007 our kitchen pipes burst with the cold because the furnace didn't keep our kitchen warm enough. We couldn't use the heat pumps because they didn't go that low, but it didn't circulate into our kitchen. There is one pump in the living and one in the dining room.

So why it's not working? There is a leak in our pipes or system somewhere. Unfortunately it's too expensive to figure out because the pipes run through our downstairs neighbors unit and tearing up his walls is not an option. So we have to assume the leak is only in the pipes and not in the wall unit itself. We could replace the pipes for $1000-$1500 and find out it's the unit.

Anyway, to put in an entirely new system is $4750, but it includes 3 new systems, including a 3rd unit in our kitchen, which is something we were thinking of anyway. It also includes a service of our current furnace. $1k labor and $3750 for the materials and units. The units are expensive online it priced out at $2800 not including wiring, pipes, etc.

The $4750 qualifies for the Federal Tax Rebate of $1500 or 30% of $5k this year. We also qualify for $500 rebate from our energy company.

Should we do it? Should we do just 2 heat pumps or the windows instead?

We're so blowing our budget this year. We spent our budgeted $5k on other repairs, but my DH wants to do it. Last year we used small space heaters on top of our furnace and gas fireplace. This year he wants more comfort.

So we're going to tap the EF. I am not sure if we should do it. Is it worth it with the tax breaks and rebates?

[watsoninc]

The way you ask the question, it as if you are asking should I spend $4750 on repairs for $2000 in rebates? Although repairs do seem necessary at some point, you are also over-budget, and your budget seems reasonable. Personally, I would either go with the smaller of the two repairs to minimize the damage or delay the repair until it fit into my budget.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Not sure if we should go ahead or just wait. I don't know actually which is a better option. Ugh.

How should I factor in the rebates/tax credits?

[disneysteve]

I think you need to factor in the increased efficiency and lower utility bills you will have going forward if you replace the systems. I don't know exactly how you do that but I'm sure the contractor or utility company can run numbers for you.

It isn't just what you'll spend, it is what you'll save.

My wife and I were talking about this the other day. We are thinking about replacing our refrigerator. There is nothing wrong with it. It works just fine, but it is over 15 years old and we know that new ones are much more energy efficient. My cousin replaced his a year or two ago and his electric bill dropped nearly 50% (he lives in a duplex apartment). The savings was enough to pay for the new fridge in about 18 months. We figure if we replace our fridge and our spare freezer (which is even older), we could lower our electric bill substantially which would offset the cost of the new appliances.

You need to do the same thing. Not only would you get systems that work better, they will almost certainly be cheaper to operate.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Gosh I totally forgot about that part of it.

Our old heat pumps are RD-22 refrigerant. The government required this year be the last year it's made and soon it will run out. So we would have to replace the system in the next 3-5 years for sure even if not broken. Why? Because for environmental reasons they will have to switch to the environmentally friendly RD-410.

Our neighbors installed just one unit in the kitchen. We are thinking about the whole shebang. They are waiting till next year because they did their windows.

But our system isn't working, so we can choose this or windows or nothing.

Of course I hadn't considered the possibly savings in heating bills. I don't need them to run it, I have my calculations from when we installed our gas fireplace which was an amazing investment. Really made our bottom floor bearable. Prior it was hard to heat it to 50 degrees.

This will make our kitchen less likely the pipes to freeze and be warmer. But for now we use electric space heaters which you know are expensive, and not that great, but better than nothing.

[wincrasher]

Even on new units, efficiency varies wildly.

These things are rated on the SEER value. The higher number the better.

If you know the value on your current system, you could ball-park an estimate on your utility bills with the new system.

Not only are you getting a tax break, expected reduction in utility bills, you are also adding to the value and saleability of your home. New heating/cooling is a big plus. New, thermopane windows are another big item with a high ROI.

The improved comfort is just gravy. I'd do it.

[wincrasher]

A question -

I have a gas fireplace in my new house. It's the kind that doesn't exhaust outside. Used it last weekend and there was a noticeable smell in the house. Not so much as a gas leak, but a definite odor of the gas burning.

Is that normal? Definately puts out ALOT of heat.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Wincrasher, SEER is 17 and HSPF is 9.2. Both way better than our current system.

But like I said our current system does not work. Unfortunately we do not know if the leak is in our unit or the pipes. No way to tell except expensive repairs around $2k at least or 40% the price of a whole new system.

So it's worth putting in a new system versus repairing. The reason the repairs are so expensive is that we live in a townhouse and there is a unit underneath where our pipes our. We cannot tear out their floors and walls to find out pipes. So we'd have to install new pipes. Then figure out if it's the pipes leaking, if not then the unit. Then replace the unit anyway for around $1k anyway.

So there no cheap quick fix solution, only don't repair it.

Yikes about the gas. Ours vents through our chimney into the outside. You need to talk to the contractor. There shouldn't be a smell. It can be dangerous.

[Seeker]

A question -

I have a gas fireplace in my new house. It's the kind that doesn't exhaust outside. Used it last weekend and there was a noticeable smell in the house. Not so much as a gas leak, but a definite odor of the gas burning.

Is that normal? Definately puts out ALOT of heat.

You're talking about a "vent free" system.... and I really don't know much about them other than the fact that you are suppose to use a very specific type of burner (or log set) in them. And also that if the sensor detects a lack of oxygen in the air, the unit is supposed to shut off automatically. My gas fireplace actually has a chimney outlet.

---

LAL, I'd say the benefits outweight the costs, especially since you've already experienced the pipes bursting once in your kitchen due to the cold. Human comfort is important too.

[Seeker]

More info on Ventless or Vent Free :


Fireplace Gas Logs Buying Guide

Mid-way through the page, the "smell" is mentioned:

#4:

Ventless logs produce an odor that many people equate to the smell of burning kerosene. So if you have a sensitive nose, you may not be able to handle the smell and will be greatly dissatisfied with ventless logs. On the other hand, we've heard some people who like the smell because it reminds them of their childhood days at Grandma's house.

[LuxLiving]

But still Wincrasher, I'd get my gas company out there to do a quick check of the system. Better safe than sorry!

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I've been using the space heaters as much as possible to keep from freezing the pipes. We also had foam blown into the area for better insulation. Old homes SUCK.

[EEinNJ]

Go ahead and do it! It sounds like sooner than later you will have to do major repair or replacement anyway, and if you don't do it now with the rebates, it will be more expensive later.
As for dipping into your EF- seems to me leaking pipes, not having heat, etc. DOES amount to an emergency.

I replaced my 32 year old oil burner/hot water heater this year. It still worked, except the hot water wasn't so great. I figured, these units have a 25 year life span, why wait 'til it breaks down or, if we sell, have to buy the next owner a new system.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I'm leaning to yes, because my DH really wants to do it. He says it's worth spending even tapping our savings because we don't want anything to happen this winter with the baby due February. He's pushing hard and I tend to agree. We painted and repaired walls with lead paint this year already.

We have heat, don't misunderstand. It's just that the heat we have is space heaters. And we've been doing other solutions to resolve the pipes like filling more insulation.

This is just another step, replacement of the system.

[wincrasher]

Another thing to think about -

Have your ductwork checked. I saw this home improvement show - they have a guage to measure air flow - and their ductwork was too small on some runs. Their unit had plenty of capacity, but because of the ductwork, they had some freezing rooms!

I probably will have my fireplace checked. Like I said, it isn't really an offensive smell, just noticeable.

As for reminding me of grandma's house - I guess it would if she cooked with as gas BBQ in the house!