I don't get the jobless.

[GREENBACK]

I don't mean to be irrate with you; it's just that I go through the same thing with the Ultra-Conservatives on my other forum. One actually said that they were smarter by breeding or genetics or whatever and therefore deserve the money they get.

The funny thing was I said 4 weeks ago that it's that type of thinking that leads to Torches and Pitchfork activity. Gee. . .look at Europe this week. . .looks like torches and pitchforks to me.

I think America has gotten so Conservative Philosophical that they have forgotten themselves - okay, they may have a few IQ points on me but not 40 billion dollars more. . .

I certainly don't subscribe to the breeding/genetics argument( opportunity maybe). Most of these people really worked their way up a very nasty corporate ladder and learned to play every angle to their advantage, especially when the gov't gave them a little extra permission to do so. A few were somewhat born into it but that's life for ya.

I think the European reaction is based on a very old model that demonstrates that this type of governance is bound to falter. It's not torches and pitchforks; rather, been there... done that, observance.

I'm not sure where we are so conservative as americans. We(gov't and people) spend like there is no tomorrow. We(gov't and people) have debt that is mind boggling. I would like to know what you mean by " so conservative philosophically". I don't see it. Look at a state like California, that is quite liberal, and completely out of control economically. Show how this perfect example is an economic model the rest of this nation or world should follow.

I'm not irate by any means; just seeking discussion on this forum.

[tripods68]

I will be an employee for the rest of my entire career. At my current job, it's not the most exciting or sexiest job, but the benefits its provides me and my family is what i love.

[tripods68]

Well. . .I only gave my political orientation because I know it can seem dichotomous. For instance, I have no problem nationalizing our banks.

They proved themselves incompetent. Nationalize them. I don't care. Ya think I really care about some ideological prattle about Socialism like the Hard Right is whining about? Banks are too important to fail. I absolutely 100% depend on them for my business. I don't know why we privatize gains and socialize losses and call that capitalism.

But all this "job creation" and why that's a goal. . .I don't get it. ANd beleive it or not, I am all for gov't spending sometimes. . .maybe not an Iraq war but fixing some bridges in a state of disrepair. . .yeah, I'll borrow for that and put some people to work. But putting police officers on the street so they can arrest deadbeat dads and put them in jail where they are housed at $40,000/year cost to the taxpayor? That's "job creation?"

And thanks for realizing how hard this country is on the self-employed; I wasn't asking for that. The thing is the self-employed rarely complain about it. . .maybe we should some more. You know, there are times I wanted to expand with labor but my taxation rate probably discouraged me. I'd rather pay a consumption tax on gasoline than double income tax if they need to offset it with something.

The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bull****. You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it. Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it. You've got that killer instinct. Stick around pal, I've still got a lot to teach you.

-Gordon Gekko

[wnlbutterfly]

There are more than enough small/medium banks that are doing okay that could pick up the business from the BIG BANKS that should fail. That is how it works.

Fixing the bridges will be a good project, but it is a temporary job creation. One I am okay with, it is all that other pork that is the problem. There is a site on the web that broke down a lot of that spending and how many jobs it would "create", some were like $100million=2 jobs. ok?

Even if 2/3 is from inheritance...how did great great grandfather get the money? Hard work? I would think so.

[southerndoc]

The way he creates jobs is to do so through the government. That's why he's pushing the infrastructure thing. He's also providing funding to ramp up environmentally friendly industries (investment idea?).

The only way he can create jobs is to either increase the government's payrolls or give companies money to get them producing stuff.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I'm definitely with steve and an odd ball. I like my job well enough but it's a job. I also plan on not starting a business because I like working for someone else. Sorry if that makes me entitled.

Entitlement i think comes from anyone self-employed or not, who expects more when they don't work hard. You can work for someone else and work hard.

Does everyone had to be chiefs? Where would we be without indians? I'm an indian. My DH currently an indian, hoping to be a chief. Is it wrong? No. We don't know anyone in real life yet whose a chief. Everyone is an indian. Do they work hard? Yes. Are they entitled? No, I think they are living the life they choose.

[disneysteve]

I'm definitely with steve and an odd ball.

Who are you calling an oddball?

[GREENBACK]

Who are you calling an oddball?

Have you ever considered the fact that you have Mickey Mouse as your avatar?...lol.

[blankcheck]

The way he creates jobs is to do so through the government. That's why he's pushing the infrastructure thing. He's also providing funding to ramp up environmentally friendly industries (investment idea?).

The only way he can create jobs is to either increase the government's payrolls or give companies money to get them producing stuff.

Careful, that comment goes against the whole catatastrophic overspending fear (most common among the financially frugal). It's not like there's any real model for this bailout thing. Ok, there is, but it's not like they know for sure it'll work. Then again, we're not sure that allowing multiple companies to completely destroy themselves under their own debt and having the possibility of service vacuums would work, either.

Best guesses all around.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Well it seems like most people here are working for themselves! :P

[Goldy1]

AS a wage earner, I have never felt entiteld to a laundry list of anything. I put in my hard work as a professional and earn my keep. I represent my employer as best I can, and have done it well.

I have personally had some minor injustices and seen some on others in the workforce(nothing too dramatic, but enough to make you see the upside to seld employment)
However, it is a personal choice. I like being a wage earner.

My dh got laid off at his firm where he worked for 9 years. They kept on a newbie that had been there 4 months in his department presumably b/c he made less money. Also he was single and we were on the family insurance plan so thet cost the company money. If his place was unionized this unfair stuff would not happen.
However, I never understood the entitelement felt obviously bt the big 3 automakers unionized folk. I mean, I don't get how the union can tell the big 3 they won't accept paycuts or increases in healthcare permiums or that they can not trim the workforce to make the company viable. It's like the company can't do what it wants to.
I mean, I have gotten sent home early, told not to come in on slow days, sucked up higher insurance costs with no voice, and not gotten raises etc. and just had to be thankful I was employed.

[cantretire]

I don’t know how much this will contribute, but here is a simple take of what I currently see. (please note that I know little of finance or economics)

Until 2 months ago, I worked as a member of support staff for a large financial company in NYC. I had a decent salary, 401K match, medical, some vacation time, etc. I’ve always worked for someone else for the last 28 years. Never thrilled about it, but it was an honest living. Never felt entitled either, although I’ve been extremely ticked off by coworkers who were. As the economy started to tank, people stopped investing. Our sales staff had fewer customers, less to do, and made less money in commissions so the staff themselves had less to spend and invest. (see the domino effect here?). The company made less money. So after much cost cutting over the last year; salary and hiring freezes, no office supplies, etc, the company that ‘never lays off’, laid off 15% of their staff the end of January. People who made less than me got to keep their jobs.

So where did the jobs ‘go’? How will they be ‘created’ again?

For example let’s assume states start rebuilding some bridges and roads. They will need to employ engineers, steel and concrete workers, architects, crane operators, office staff and others I wouldn’t know about. This will give some unemployed or underemployed people ‘something to do’ and a way to earn money. When these employees start to feel a bit secure, they may start spending a little cash, saving and investing a little more. So maybe Shoprite can hire a few more cashiers and financial companies a few more people. (and let’s face it, we will all be happier with safer bridges and roads, a reward in itself. Think about that bridge collapse and all those lives lost.)

Now let’s hope that banks start lending a little more money out. Small businesses can start or expand. More jobs. More shopping, more spending, more saving for the bad times. Maybe stocks will edge up. Hopefully, the domino effect will go back the other way.

The unemployed will start finding some jobs, even if temp jobs. Cities will start getting more in taxes again. People will start riding mass transit again or driving, paying tolls and fuel taxes.

If banks start lending the money to small businesses, I may be able to start a business idea that I’ve wanted to open for the last several years. Not only will I be employed again, but I will ‘create’ some jobs myself as I will need a staff. This is gainfully employed just as much as if I worked for someone else. Supply and demand seems to be in play here. It will be a small slow start, but SOMETHING has to start somewhere.

We are in an unusual situation here as in the past, companies operated under official or unofficial ‘rules’ and ethical practices. That was all tossed out the last 2 or 3 decades, mortgages and such, and are now in a mess that doesn’t seem to have a natural way out. I think that’s where we will need some government help until things calm down.

Oh, and I’m all for hiring more police officers. I remember NYC in the 70s. It wasn’t pretty.

[Scanner]

LivingLarge,

I don't think "entitleistic" was the word I was looking for in my criticism (being Generation X - we have been called that so much, it's frankly worn out so I don't like calling any group that).

I guess I have been approached by people for my business and they ask me, "Can I have a job. Do you have any jobs available?"

And I am like, "Um. . .okay. What can you do?" I mean, my answer to that, is "Maybe." in my head honestly. . .but why I should be in the business of "creating jobs?" In fact, I am pretty sure I am not in that business the last time I checked. ("Holly, did I get a memo on that?" )

When I see the jobless going out looking for work, I am not sure most people are that far off from the people who asked me for a "job-hand-out."

It's like we are on different planets. It's like. . .now is the time that employers and employees should be etching out new markets and exploring new niches - there's all this human capital around but there's something culturally lacking there - a rift between how EMPLOYEES like you and DisneySteve think and EMPLOYERS like I think.

If I was looking for a job, I would be targeting natural fits for my skills and experiences and then telling (probably a small business). . .this is how I can make you some money. Do we have a deal? I'ts more like a "joint venture" vs. a "hiring."

My wife has said though that I am often on another planet and big businesses don't think that way at all. . .it's all about I guess how you can fit in around the workplace. Maybe it's a Generation X thing - we are kind of indifferent to conformity.

I really do think I did miss out on not being Corporate America pre-40 years old. I really don't think I would last there more than 1 year. And please don't get me wrong - I admire anyone who gets up and goes and punches a timeclock everyday. I am not saying because we think differently that we are adversaries.

[Scanner]

PS:

I thought of an example of my thinking/standard thinking. Let's just say DisneySteve was out of work and there were no family doctor jobs available (very unlikely, very, but this is just a hypothetical). To me, what he should do is use his network. . .he may know that Scanner from www.savingadvice.com is a chiropractic physician. . .seems to be doing well. . .he's only an hour away. . .maybe he wants to expand.

He would then come to me and say, "I see you are interesting in fasting. Have you considered a fasting clinic for weight loss? You have? YOu are considering that right now actually? Well, how about I do the initial intakes for you and screen for red flags and help co-manage. We can work out finances later."

I'd be elated as an employer. I'd be like, "Where the hell did you drop from the sky?"

If he however comes to me and says, "Scanner, do ya have a job for a family doctor?", I'd probably be like, "Um. . .no, I don't. Sorry."

The same situation could be vice-versa. . .he owns a family practice clinic and I say, "How about I triage musculoskeletal complaints? YOu open to a drugless physician doing that?"

If I go into his practice and say, "Hiring any chiropractors?", I'd be shown the door I'm sure and my butt would be skidding down the NJ Turnpike.

Am I crazy to think like this? Or maybe the gainfully employed do think like this and I don't know it?

[disneysteve]

Interesting post, Scanner. I see where you are coming from now. I think the problem (not really a problem - just a different point of view on your part) is that most employers don't think in an entrepreneurial fashion, even those who own their own businesses. They see that job X needs to be done and they hire someone who can do job X. An employee who needs a job and knows how to do job X goes looking for an employer who needs job X done. Plain and simple.

What you are thinking of is much more open-minded. Rather than, "Do I have a job that I need this person can do?" you are asking "What can this person do that might benefit my business?" Your way is much more out-of-the-box thinking and that's great. It just isn't the way most places operate, which is a shame.