How to define "Poor"?

[bigdaddybus]

Imho, "poor" means you cannot provide for your own basic necessities such as food, water, shelter, clothing and basic medical/dental care.

+2.

Being loaded up with debt does not make someone poor, but can easily make them broke

[bigdaddybus]

I think this is a good definition.

I work in a very poor area. Solely based on appearances, people seem to be doing okay - they have a place to live, decent clothing, food on the table, health insurance, etc. But if you look beneath the surface, the housing is subsidized, the clothing may come from the church donation bin, the food was bought with food stamps, and the health care is government-provided. They aren't paying for these things with their own resources.

Clearly "poor" looks different in this country than it does in many other parts of the world because we don't allow our poor to languish in the streets, but they are still poor.

IMO, one thing I think chaps alot of peoples asses making around the median hh income ($55K) is that there seems to be an aweful lot of poor families living a government subsidized lifestyle that appears as good if not better than those struggling to get by without assistance.

[Outdoorsygal]

IMO, one thing I think chaps alot of peoples asses making around the median hh income ($55K) is that there seems to be an aweful lot of poor families living a government subsidized lifestyle that appears as good if not better than those struggling to get by without assistance.

As far as the world goes, they assume all "poor" people are on gov't assistance. Not true. The low income thresholds aka poverty levels are actually alot of $$ for someone who owns his own abode (and/or has barely any property taxes/housing costs) grows their own food and hunts (and/or trades for food) uses solar panels & batteries for power and it meets the majority of their needs most of the time,, and works a job just enough to qualify for medical benefits. It all boils down to basic necessity debt versus income. Leftover $$ should, at the very least, be saved to cover medical issues that arise later in life. Medicare has a 20% co- insurance fee & monthly premiums.

But like Disney Steve said, our poor are doing very well compared to the rest of the world. So to define "poor" can be tricky since they can easily be doing better than the middle class. And not be on any gov't assistance.

[Outdoorsygal]

+2.

Being loaded up with debt does not make someone poor, but can easily make them broke

Yes, you and DS understood my post to a T

[LivingAlmostLarge]

It's also easy to feel poor when everyone around you makes A LOT more or is financing their lifestyle with debt. Then you want what you can't afford.

Reality is most people can't afford to drive $40k luxury SUV but I see them everywhere. If we stick to Disneysteve's no more than 10% of income for 3 years that's a lot of income to afford those cars.

[disneysteve]

Reality is most people can't afford to drive $40k luxury SUV but I see them everywhere. If we stick to Disneysteve's no more than 10% of income for 3 years that's a lot of income to afford those cars.

True, but also keep in mind that a high percentage of those luxury vehicles are leased, not purchased. The driver might be keeping the payment to the 10% rule (or not) but they missed the "3 year" part of the rule and will have car payments indefinitely by leasing.

I'd venture to guess that the majority of car buyers don't follow the 10%/3 year rule.

ETA: Last year, 1/3 of all new cars were leased.
The average new car loan was $29,551 with an average duration of 63 months - over 5 years!
For subprime borrowers, the average duration was 72 months - 6 years, and the average interest rate was 10%!

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I don't see the picture of what it is you have in common with someone of very low income, someone we'd understand is poor.

Do you not have and do the things that people of middle income tend to have and do? For example, do you not reliably have nutritious and good tasting food? Do you not have a reliable form of transportation? Do you not have enough clothes presentable for work? Do you not have the tools you need to make a living? Do you not have the ability to get common luxuries like a cup of coffee in the morning a haircut from Supercuts, small kitchen appliances? Maybe a meal out, comfortable temperatures in your home, cosmetics, a beer now and then, buying a gift for a loved one, and so on?

I'll admit I have a fairly low understanding of which things are luxuries (you can live without them), but I must not be understanding what you mean by poor. What is poor? I only understand that you draw a line between poor and impoverished.

[disneysteve]

Do you not have and do the things that people of middle income tend to have and do? For example, do you not reliably have nutritious and good tasting food? Do you not have a reliable form of transportation? Do you not have enough clothes presentable for work? Do you not have the tools you need to make a living? Do you not have the ability to get common luxuries like a cup of coffee in the morning a haircut from Supercuts, small kitchen appliances? Maybe a meal out, comfortable temperatures in your home, cosmetics, a beer now and then, buying a gift for a loved one, and so on?

Great post. I see this every day in my practice. Patients come in wearing clothing that I wouldn't even wear around the house yet alone be seen out in public wearing. They have no car, no phone service, sometimes no electricity in their homes for weeks at a time. I have patients who live in motels via housing vouchers from the state. They have a little cube fridge and maybe a microwave but that's it. No freezer. No stove or oven. Their food choices are very limited. They might own one nice outfit that they wear to church but even that is iffy. They frequently skip medicine and medical care because they have no money for it and/or have no transportation to get to doctors and pharmacies. And these are all folks who receive government assistance, so don't think that getting aid makes their lives all honky dory.

[cornfieldj]

This is a fascinating thread. I don't have a clearly formed answer - just some half-formed thoughts. I equate being poor with the inability to make good decisions. I also see it as having few choices - sometimes by design, or because of making bad decisions.

It's not just money. I know people who've made bad decisions on great salaries, and people who have saved aggressively on somewhat limited salaries. Guess who's doing better?

[disneysteve]

I equate being poor with the inability to make good decisions.

So do you think everyone who is poor is in that situation by their own doing?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

No another poor is when people have become accustomed to a certain lifestyle and then forced by job loss to a lower level. It can be difficult to scale back abruptly.

[cornfieldj]

So do you think everyone who is poor is in that situation by their own doing?

Not at all. I was talking about people with college educations and access to plenty of opportunity who made really bad financial decisions.

When I think of people who are born into traditional poverty, I do not at all think that it's their own doing but a combination of factors. This country is a lot more stratified than people realize, and it's very hard to move up and out from a grindingly poor upbringing.

In poor neighborhoods (at least in New York City) even the post office is much, much crummier than it is in pricier neighborhoods. The schools vary - there's a good one nearby, but it doesn't compare in terms of resources and test scores to the ones 20 blocks south.

I guess I was just talking about people who become poor. It's definitely different from being poor.

[snafu]

The census chart offered shows people who are truly poor. A great majority of individuals like Hundred K are in financial difficulty as a result of choices they made. They have ongoing income, possibly opportunities to increase income with and can't be considered 'poor' by the numbers. I'd guess applying some unpleasant discipline for a reasonable period of time will get your financial picture right sized as you wish.

[GoodSteward]

Based on my personal take on this “Rich” and “Poor” are not based on income, but on your mindset. People can have very little, but value family and what they have so much they feel rich and don’t need what most often think you do to feel a high quality of life. In other words, they feel rich even though they may be financially poor. You will find this more in less materialized places like 3rd world countries. They are happy because they don’t know what they are missing, so they are not really missing it to feel poor. On the flip side, you can have everything you need and even things you don’t need (nice phone, extra money to buy drinks or eat out some times, etc) and always think of yourself as poor due to your income and spending habits.

Your mindset is often determined by the income you make, which trickles down into the way you feel about yourself as rich or poor. This is why you will feel rich if you make more than those round you, or feel poor if you make less. If you think you are rich, you will spend like you’re rich and your standards for quality of life will on par with that. If you think you are poor, you will look for others to pay for you and expect handouts, and always think your quality of life is low regardless of what you have. These are the traits I’ve personally witnesses and even experienced years ago before I matured.

Because they are mindsets, they drive us to focus on money above all else. I’m not seeking to be rich, because that will change who I am. I just want to be wealthy when I retire, meaning I have plenty of money to live without a job. I want my life to mean more to me than having a certain number in an account. I don't consider myself rich or poor.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I've found friends whom I'm amazed at how much money they make still feel poor. I mean they make ridiculous amounts of money and yet they still can't make ends meet. I also have friends who don't make much but spend everything because they live for free with family. So their entire income is disposable. They pay for pretty much nothing.

So I guess it's definitely relative to how much also is disposable.