Businesses not offering refunds/discounts

[disneysteve]

And if the daycare workers aren't caring for children, they shouldn't be paid, right?

My daughter is an instructor and lifeguard at a swim school. The school closed due to COVID. The staff was laid off. She filed for unemployment. I would never expect the school to keep paying the staff when they're closed and have no income. The parents aren't being charged for lessons they aren't getting so where would the money come from?

[bjl584]

If I owned a small business right now and it got shut down I'd probably have no choice but to lay everyone off until things got back up and running.

If I had, say a restaurant, no customers coming in the door means no revenue and no way to make payroll. If you have a loan on the place you would be dipping into personal savings to pay the note. That and probably taxes, insurance, utilities, etc.
It's hard to eliminate those fixed costs, but labor can be slashed fairly quickly.

I don't think anyone would expect me to pay employees who can't even come in to do a job.
And if someone from the outside wants to complain about that I could gently remind them to mind their own business. Or tell them to feel free to break out their check book.

[rennigade]

And if the daycare workers aren't caring for children, they shouldn't be paid, right?

Yeah, thats typically how it works. If you can find me a job where I don't have to do anything and still get paid, sign me up!

[Scallywag]

The deal with daycares & preschools or private school is that you sign a school year or an annual contract with them (depending on whether you want summer care or not). This means you agree to pay even for time your child is not in care / school as a way of "saving his / her spot". It's the same thing with some gyms - even if you don't use the gym, the spiel is that the gym was open / available, you just chose not to use it. This is why these businesses can be quite profitable as you're "guaranteed" payment, regardless of whether you provide service or not (and most demand electronic access to your checking account).

You can fight them and shut off their payments but be prepares to find a different child care place for your kids once you need care. It really sucks, so just be glad that "NT" children only need childcare for a few years (very different story for children with special needs)

[disneysteve]

The deal with daycares & preschools or private school is that you sign a school year or an annual contract with them (depending on whether you want summer care or not). This means you agree to pay even for time your child is not in care / school as a way of "saving his / her spot". It's the same thing with some gyms - even if you don't use the gym, the spiel is that the gym was open / available, you just chose not to use it.

Sure, but that's not what we're talking about here. That's all fine and dandy if the school or gym is open, but they're not now. Our gym closed sometime in March and guess what? They're not billing us for any of the time that they remain closed. Yes we signed a contract but they aren't currently able to fulfill their half of the bargain so they're not holding us to our half. The same should be true of a preschool or daycare. If they're closed, you shouldn't have to pay.

[Scallywag]

Sure, but that's not what we're talking about here. That's all fine and dandy if the school or gym is open, but they're not now. Our gym closed sometime in March and guess what? They're not billing us for any of the time that they remain closed. Yes we signed a contract but they aren't currently able to fulfill their half of the bargain so they're not holding us to our half. The same should be true of a preschool or daycare. If they're closed, you shouldn't have to pay.

The devil is in the details aka the signed contract. If there are no "out" clauses (including for times when the business is unable to provide contracted services) then you should have not signed that contract in the first place. The business may claim that they couldn't provide services because the Govt shut them down, not because it was a problem with the business. They may therefore claim / invoke "FORCE MAJEURE", so affected parties / customers / parents should contact a contract attorney in this regard.

This may not be as simple as "you didn't provide care, so I don't have to pay" as this is an extraordinary unprecedented / unanticipated circumstances.

[kork13]

Yes we signed a contract but they aren't currently able to fulfill their half of the bargain so they're not holding us to our half.

This is the key. Contracts are a two-way street. If one party cannot or will not uphold its side of the contract, then the other party is not liable for their side of the contract. Daycares do often have a set number of paid-while-closed days, but beyond that (typically) 2-3 weeks of time, the daycare is in breach of contract. They aren't providing the agreed upon services in line with the contract, so you can't be held to pay according to the contract. Individual daycares may be choosing not to advertise this fact... But that's the simple fact of how a judge would see it.

Our daycare has been canceling services one week at a time. After 3 weeks closed, and in line with our local school district, they closed through the end of May and have refunded us our payments less the 2 weeks they were contractually entitled to.

[disneysteve]

This is the key. Contracts are a two-way street. If one party cannot or will not uphold its side of the contract, then the other party is not liable for their side of the contract.

Exactly. How can any business hold you to the payment agreement if they're unable to provide the service that you've contracted them for? That makes no sense. I can't imagine that would hold up in court.

[Scallywag]

Exactly. How can any business hold you to the payment agreement if they're unable to provide the service that you've contracted them for? That makes no sense. I can't imagine that would hold up in court.

I suggest you look up "force majeure". You might be very unpleasantly surprised!

[disneysteve]

I suggest you look up "force majeure". You might be very unpleasantly surprised!

Somebody mentioned it in another thread and I did a little reading on it. I'm by no means a lawyer but it sounds like it very much depends on the exact wording of the contract and what state you happen to be in. So yes, there are situations where you might be contractually obligated to pay even if the school is closed.

I can tell you 100% that if I found myself in that situation, I'd be speaking to a lawyer just to see if I had any options. And at the very least, I'd be seeking another facility for when that contract expired because I would not want to continue to do business with a place that operated that way.

I'm willing to bet that many of the places that have suspended payments have force majeure clauses and are choosing not to invoke them because it's a really sleazy thing to do to your customers.

[mumof2]

I suggest you look up "force majeure". You might be very unpleasantly surprised!

I found this....https://www.lokllc.com/news/can-your...irus-pandemic/

[disneysteve]

I found this....https://www.lokllc.com/news/can-your...irus-pandemic/

I saw a few similar things. They all say that the clause could excuse both parties from the contract. That clause is not necessarily just a one-sided thing.

[mumof2]

I saw a few similar things. They all say that the clause could excuse both parties from the contract. That clause is not necessarily just a one-sided thing.

In aust the govt is giving everyone free childcare right now and they are paying the services half the money many have chosen to close as it just isn't worth it and only paying half the costs when they have to pay all costs still they will go broke...so many don't open which is hurting essential workers but they just can't afford it...so what can you do...and the restrictions on the centres for sizes of rooms, menus and number of children are also so stringent...so many will go under and many will be unemployed and they are some of the lowest paid workers already so many probably will shut up shop at least for now!!....but I don't know any that would make you pay if they werent open...sometimes they over christmas but its usually at half price

[riverwed070707]

I don't think daycares should be allowed to charge if they aren't open, but adding a layer of complexity, most day cares here aren't closed. Fortunately for us, my daughter is school aged and only goes to after school care one day a week and if there is no school, we don't pay so once schools shut down, there was no financial obligation for us but I can see how they'd continue to charge families with full time daycare spots even if they were working from home or laid off and decided not to send their kids.

[disneysteve]

I don't know any that would make you pay if they werent open

Of course not. That would be an inexcusably poor business decision. They'd likely lose all of their customers and get ripped to shreds in online reviews.

What these places should be doing is filing claims on their business interruption insurance policies. This is exactly the sort of thing they are designed for.