getting and EF while poor

[LivingAlmostLarge]

We had that thread about striking for government workers. And we said they "should" have had an EF. Probably true since they had a pretty good job as a federal worker. But the threads of people who talk about being really poor? Those who can't scrape up an EF? For those who juggle between what bill to pay. How do we help those who can't even get $500 together?

[creditcardfree]

The practice is the same at any income level. Live beneath your means. I'm sure it is harder, but it is possible. They likely don't have a lot to sell, but a side gig, even babysitting can bring in money to start an emergency fund. It may take longer to build up $500, but it's possible. The only group that I consider as one that may have a harder time accumulating an emergency fund are those that are disabled and cannot function in any type of work and thus low income. They of course do rely on government funds to survive.

And as far as low income and what bill to pay, the electric bill, food and house payment, and money to get to work (gas or bus fare) have to come first.

How do we help anyone that can't get an emergency fund together? Regardless of income, they have to want to. We can't make anyone do it. Some who tend to use the safety net services government provides tend to have the mentality that someone else will help them with their problems, they don't see that they can do something to help their situation. Trust me, I know this is not everyone. My own sister in law took benefits while going to school to be a dental hygienist. Sometimes these things are temporary.

[Scallywag]

We had that thread about striking for government workers. And we said they "should" have had an EF. Probably true since they had a pretty good job as a federal worker. But the threads of people who talk about being really poor? Those who can't scrape up an EF? For those who juggle between what bill to pay. How do we help those who can't even get $500 together?

I have daily contact with the "working poor" through my job.

It's really difficult to just make ends meet at the end of each month for many of them. Many work second or third jobs. If you have young children that makes it harder to take on multiple jobs unless you have a mother or a mother-in-law or friends willing to watch your children while you work. One thing that really helps (and the reason it is getting harder to hire for lower level jobs in expensive cities like SF or LA) is to move to a cheaper (but safer) zip code. For instance, the cost of living in the Central Valley is almost 1/2 the cost of living in the Bay Area or LA. If you have marketable skills such as sewing or baking or handyman talents or mechanical abilities, then you could start a small side business from home to make extra money.

Secondly, there are many YouTube channels that show how to save on groceries even when you make very little. Growing your own fruits and vegetables or raising chickens for eggs slashes your grocery budgets by half. You can source seeds and young laying chickens by asking farmers or "crowd funding". Even if you can't afford to pay for chicken feed or don't have space for the birds, you can still save tons of money just getting and growing plants from free seeds.

The combination of a cheaper cost of living + free backyard food + side businesses helps quite a bit. I think the really poor would get government benefits to help stretch / supplement their low income while the lower middle classes need to take on more jobs to get an emergency fund in place.

I also think DIYing and developing productive or constructive hobbies that don't cost you any $$$$$$$$ (learning to knit or how to repair your dishwasher, using free YouTube videos for instance) can be profitable. I also think walking to work or the stores or schools or using public transportation slashes $$$$$$$$$$$$$ off your budget. Learning to cut your own hair is another way to save some money and using up everything in the house before you spend a dime can easily help build a fund.

I think much of the hullabaloo over federal workers was dramatic - maybe the lowest paid were in trouble but middle / higher income feds probably had an emergency cushion to weather the storm unlike some of the poorest people that they (are supposed to) serve. The total number of people who appear to have filed for unemployment does not look to be a significant percentage of 800000 even in cray cray California where the governor all but insisted that furloughed feds apply for unemployment which means they most likely all had a cushion to use on stormy days.

[bjl584]

Whether you earn a million dollars a year or $15,000, it's all about mindset, habits, and practices.
While it would be a lot harder for a poor person to save I would think that it is possible with the right education and execution.
I'm not sure how you get people to that place though.
This issue has come up before.

[disneysteve]

While it would be a lot harder for a poor person to save

Of course, at the same time, they don't need to save as much for it to be meaningful. Even a $100 EF would be huge to someone really living on the edge in poverty. Save just $1/week if that's what you can do. It is certainly better than nothing.

There are many reasons for poverty. The hard part is that many people do things that perpetuate their bad situation. Smoking comes to mind. The national rate is about 14% but the rate among those living at or below the poverty line is over 30%. The people that can least afford blowing $7-8/day on a pack of cigarettes are the ones most likely to be doing it. The same goes for lottery tickets. Even $1/day is money they simply shouldn't be spending, and many people spend a lot more than that. Even if you just cut back from 1 pack/day of cigarettes to 1/2 pack/day, you'll have $100 saved in under a month.

[Smallsteps]

I too have worked with those living paycheck to paycheck to the point of one of our checks was a day late and people were panicked
I cannot recall how many times this same type could come up with funds for concerts/ sporting events or even going out to eat or hang out at a bar etc.

My thought is if someone can babysit or do a side job of some type for concert tickets then doing the same to make an EF is possible.
The Issue is most do NOT see the point and simply could not keep their hands off of a fund unless they put it somewhere that was inconvenient to get at. It is a priority issue and unless a person wants to really change their money habits, it won't work.

[disneysteve]

It is a priority issue

Yes, but it's also very much a mindset issue. These people live a rough life. They are surrounded by abuse, drugs, alcohol, and violence. I had multiple patients in my practice who had been shot or stabbed at some time in the past. I had multiple patients who had lost a parent, sibling, or child to gun violence or substance abuse. When that's your day to day reality, saving for a future that you don't ever expect to see is a whole different way of life than most of us here live. I am preparing to live a long happy life. Folks mired in poverty don't have that same level of optimism. Why save money when you could get shot and killed leaving work tonight? You may as well enjoy whatever time you've got here.

It's very hard to change that worldview.

[Smallsteps]

These people live a rough life. They are surrounded by abuse, drugs, alcohol, and violence.

It's very hard to change that worldview.

I agree that is hard to change a worldview, Honestly this is probably the most misunderstood issue out there. I have almost NEVER met people that were in situations that were not a result of bad choices.

I also have personally witnessed drugs alcohol used as a rationalization for why a person can not overcome things. I think it is too many stereotypes or assumptions about poverty

Many here may have backgrounds that would be completely surprising to some here. Yet they overcame issues that others use as an excuse as to why they can't change anything.

[~bs]

The hard part about the working poor - from an outsider looking in - is that problems seem to compound on itself and the impact of those problems are magnified if you are lacking in resources. Your choices may be limited to "bad or worse", take your pick. And if you're in a 10 foot hole, it's hard to figure out how to dig yourself out.

Cooking, by far is the cheapest food option. You can make nutritious meals for very cheap. you can make even cheaper meals by sticking mainly with staples, such as rice, beans, potatoes. $0.50/meal? Entirely doable. That being said, if someone is working multiple jobs, trying to feed multiple kids, pay rent, etc. they're not going to have time for these options, so they'll default to fast food and tv dinners. More expensive, and garbage nutrition.

car is making funny noises. Do you skip making rent to have it fixed properly, offer to sleep with the mechanic to fix it, just top off fluids and hope that helps, or do nothing.

Stress over all the money related problems, kids acting up in school, baby daddy not helping, or do I take a hit from this crack pipe, and the problems just all go away...

[Smallsteps]

It is a case by case basis why there is never a good answer.
I have seen people do amazing things on very little income and I have seen people making more, simply drowning in debt and problems.

There is no quick fix and those who think they are helping often backfire,
Example those insisting on raising minimum wages a study of Seattle by the U of Washington (which is in Seattle) showed most of those affected actually lost income as their hours were cut or jobs disappeared or moved (as many did) outside the city. etc.

Where is the money for people to learn better skills and encourage people to move up the job chain.
I have worked with many whom stayed in dead end jobs for a long time then when offered a chance they unfortunately often bring the lack of effort that kept them in dead end jobs.

I worked at a job that had many first time workers or those trying to go to work and get off programs Many ( too Many) did not want to succeed they knew if they past a certain level of income they lost the freebies so they would literally call in sick if they were scheduled for hours that would put them over.

Many young people also have some idea of what job they think they want or chase estimated income instead of looking around and finding other options which often pay more then they think.
I do agree many people simply compound their own issues example bad driving record can eliminate many job options … behavior as youth that later in life show up on background checks.
Even those whose credit record are checked to see how you operate your own life often eliminates options.

Unless we stress that some behaviors or " mistakes" follow them and cost much more in the long run.

[disneysteve]

Cooking, by far is the cheapest food option.

For you and me, definitely. For a poor person who lives in the inner city, not necessarily. The grocery chains don't build stores in those neighborhoods. Getting to one means either having a working vehicle or taking 1 or 2 buses. Then you're limited to what you can carry home, certainly nothing frozen or perishable. That often leaves you shopping at the corner store in your neighborhood where healthy options are limited and prices are sky high. It is often cheaper to buy junk food unfortunately.

[disneysteve]

There is no quick fix and those who think they are helping often backfire,
Example those insisting on raising minimum wages a study of Seattle by the U of Washington (which is in Seattle) showed most of those affected actually lost income as their hours were cut or jobs disappeared or moved (as many did) outside the city. etc.

Very true. The whole $15 minimum wage effort is a farce and is destined for failure.

I worked at a job that had many first time workers or those trying to go to work and get off programs Many ( too Many) did not want to succeed they knew if they past a certain level of income they lost the freebies so they would literally call in sick if they were scheduled for hours that would put them over.

I've seen the same thing, and that is not the fault of the individuals. That's a systemic problem. If you earn $1 over the limit, you lose 100% of your benefits. It makes no sense. It needs to be tiered so that you gradually phase out of benefits as your income rises. Otherwise, you obviously create a disincentive to earning more because your net income will actually be quite a bit lower due to the loss of benefits.

[creditcardfree]

It needs to be tiered so that you gradually phase out of benefits as your income rises. Otherwise, you obviously create a disincentive to earning more because your net income will actually be quite a bit lower due to the loss of benefits.

I completely agree! It has to be tiered. It's better for the taxpayer AND the individual who wants to move forward and succeed. Instead our laws have actually kept people on the government doles costing us money and keeping a segment of the population stuck in poverty. I blame politicians in the past and those currently in office for not recognizing, or ignoring that this is a real issue that can be solved.

[Scallywag]

Very true. The whole $15 minimum wage effort is a farce and is destined for failure.


I've seen the same thing, and that is not the fault of the individuals. That's a systemic problem. If you earn $1 over the limit, you lose 100% of your benefits. It makes no sense. It needs to be tiered so that you gradually phase out of benefits as your income rises. Otherwise, you obviously create a disincentive to earning more because your net income will actually be quite a bit lower due to the loss of benefits.

Companies that move jobs oversees to save $$$$$ should lose government and tax credits, period. Then the $15 minimum wage would work even if it's still not a living wage in some parts of the country.

There is a downside to living in a prohibitively expensive area - I literally cannot hire people to do jobs that traditionally pay less, including teaching in public schools. This is because many teachers cannot afford to live in the neighborhoods they teach and the cost of commuting from a long distance often isn't worth their while so they prefer to reach somewhere that they could actually make a decent living for the important jobs that they do. This in turn affects the quality of education in these neighborhoods as the schools cannot often afford to pay more for their teachers - and the median income in these places cannot buy or even rent a median priced home !

Anyway I digress.

The working poor can afford to cook - even if they have no cars and cannot carry a lot of groceries on their bicycles or buses / trains, they can haul rice, beans, potatoes, Mac and cheese, pasta and small bags of vegetables in a backpack. Milk might be too heavy to carry around and eggs too fragile but these can be purchased at corner stores. Many prefer to go without milk (as is it $$$$$$) and the kids get their daily serving at school via the free / reduced lunch (they also get their share of daily serving of protein at school).

The most important thing is they need the motivation to climb out and improve the quality of their lives. That's the only thing that matters at all.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I've found it really hard though to save money at poverty level. It really is hard to realize that you have $3 and while it's cheaper to buy more tomato sauce you don't have enough to buy the bigger amount. So then you can't save money by always buying the smaller amounts. Or not having time to cook when you work so much. I mean real poverty. Not people who make enough to live paycheck to paycheck but those who live choosing which bill to pay. How do we help them fix that?