Why don't Amish pay taxes and social security

[Like2Plan]

True for SSDI but not true for SSI. Children can get SSI if the parents never paid a dime into the social security system.

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10026.pdf

KTP,
I may be wrong, but this is from the link you provided:

The SSDI program pays benefits
to adults who have a disability that
began before they became 22 years
old. We consider this SSDI benefit
as a “child’s” benefit because it is
paid on a parent’s Social Security
earnings record.
For a disabled adult to become
entitled to this “child” benefit, one of
his or her parents:
• Must be receiving Social Security
retirement or disability benefits; or
• Must have died and have worked
long enough under Social Security.

[KTP]

Like2Plan

SSI has different rules from SSDI

[hamchan]

Ok well your friend is not one of the people I am talking about then. He sounds like exactly the type of person SSD was meant for.

The people on TV, unless they are acting, do not seem like typical physical or mentally disabled people.

You can go online right now and find tons of websites describing ways to cheat the SSD system and get benefits.

Well, as I said before, if you just saw him for 15 minutes on a TV show you'd never have a clue that he is incapable of holding down a job. Most people who are just acquainted with him just think he's a little odd. I don't think it's any of our jobs, let alone our business, to be deciding who does and does not deserve to get SSI, especially for people we do not know personally. Not every disability is outwardly visible or obvious.

[KTP]

Well, as I said before, if you just saw him for 15 minutes on a TV show you'd never have a clue that he is incapable of holding down a job. Most people who are just acquainted with him just think he's a little odd. I don't think it's any of our jobs, let alone our business, to be deciding who does and does not deserve to get SSI, especially for people we do not know personally. Not every disability is outwardly visible or obvious.

Maybe it isn't your business, but having paid over $250,000 in FICA taxes I believe it is my business to make sure the program is not abused and is there to protect the people who need it and funded it.

[hamchan]

Maybe it isn't your business, but having paid over $250,000 in FICA taxes I believe it is my business to make sure the program is not abused and is there to protect the people who need it and funded it.

Oh? And how exactly are you doing that by judging people you have never met based on seeing them on TV for 15 minutes? And then somehow deciding that most people on SSI are abusing it based on that. GMAB

[KTP]

Oh? And how exactly are you doing that by judging people you have never met based on seeing them on TV for 15 minutes? And then somehow deciding that most people on SSI are abusing it based on that. GMAB

Fair enough. Watching a TV show where everyone could be acting is not a good way to judge for SSI fraud.

There are certainly cases of fraud and everyone should be concerned. I want the benefits to be there for people like your friend who need them.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/disability_fraud_saps_social_s.html

[hamchan]

Although I do not doubt that there are people claiming to be disabled who are not actually disabled, I have a big issue with making snap judgements about a person's disability status based on outward appearances.

[Tonyall]

It all boils down to the special privileges religions get that no other ideologies do. If life was far, they all would end today.

[Gailete]

The Amish care for their own and do not tap the SS system. If one of their own needs to go to the hospital for surgery, the whole group contributes. At one point a young man was hurt and came to our hospital paralyzed for rehab. With him came the elders of the group with $50,000 cash to put towards the bill and as the bill increases, they paid more, then they took him home to care for him with out any social services. Same with SS for retirement. Never heard of the Amish retiring, but they take care of their own families and old people with support from the whole group.

If the rest of us lived more like them their would be less reasons for SS and all the other entitlement programs.

[Gailete]

Even so, there is no guarantee that one of the Amish children won't get declared disabled at some future point and collect SSD if they leave the clan. At that point it was the parent, who never paid into the SS system, that is responsible for the drain of the system by their child.

I am on SSD and believe me it isn't from my parents paying into it but my work years. If I hadn't worked as hard as I did for the money I did, my SSD would be a lot smaller than it is. Currently mine is just a few dollars above average. I too am one of those people that unless you saw me walking I wouldn't appear 'disabled' either. Just the other day a lady my age thought I was about 35 years old. She was only off about 23 years! the point is I look healthy, but have such bad arthritis, I am on narcotics around the clock for pain control plus get an IV every 8 weeks to fight it. I have many bouts where I can't walk at all and can barely move as any motion hurts. Sometimes the only bones in my body that don't hurt are the tiny ones in my ears. Believe me I have earned my SSD. To look at someone and try to decide if they should be on SSD or not is for SS to decide and believe me it isn't an easy process.

As for the Amish they are a whole different story. If someone leaves the Amish community, then they would have to start paying into the system like the rest of us. The work had, take care of their own and extend their help to others that need it. Several years ago a gunman broke into an Amish school (not government funded) and killed many of the children there and then he either killed himself or the police did (can't remember which). Instead of shunning and acting hateful towards the family of the man who did this horrendous thing, they opened up their arms to the widow and gave her comfort. Within weeks of the shooting they destroyed the school house, to help the memories fade and as a group after the first week refused to talk to anyone in the media so the whole thing died down fast. They lead a different kind of life and are entitled to not have to pay into a system that they won't be using. If someone has paid $250K into the SS system, you will be getting a nice big check come time to retire. It isn't like you won't get anything out of the money you sent into the system.

[bUU]

As for the Amish they are a whole different story. If someone leaves the Amish community, then they would have to start paying into the system like the rest of us.

And keep in mind that (a) they're not going to get anything from SSD that someone else who has been in the system as long as they have wouldn't get; and (b) the overall incidence of Amish people leaving the specific orders that have the exemption are very low - that's partly why those orders got the exemption.

everal years ago a gunman broke into an Amish school (not government funded) and killed many of the children there and then he either killed himself or the police did (can't remember which). Instead of shunning and acting hateful towards the family of the man who did this horrendous thing, they opened up their arms to the widow and gave her comfort.

And we're talking about within a matter of an hour or so - not days or weeks later.

[mom-from-missouri]

get your facts straight

Amish DO pay taxes. If they work outside of the home, they also pay into SS.

If they are self employed, as many are, they usually don't pay into SS.

Most are large farm owners and often pay more in property and real estate taxes than those who live in towns/cities do.

They do not collect SS, even the ones who do pay into it, so they are not draining the system. They take care of their own, better than the ones who have insurance and draw SS. Most Amish churches have a fund, sort of a tax, and each family pays into it quarterly or yearly. Those funds are used for medical uses for the church members.

Not only do I live in an Amish area, I have Amish family. Also, be sure you are referring to Amish and not Mennonite--there is a difference. Mennonites do pay into SS.

There are around 300,000 Amish in the US, that are baptized Amish adults. More if you also count the children.

Also, as an FYI, in my county, a good working draft horse can actually require more taxes than a modern small tractor. Tractor depreciates. The horse doesn't, and if it is a stud, the taxes are even higher. My tractor, I pay $34 a year on. (My husband has several that we pay taxes on, but this is the one I use). Our neighbor has a team of working draft horses (Amish). He pays $76 per horse, per year--and has a team of 6.

Buggies are licensed, so there is tax on them as well. So, we pay taxes on our car. One tax per car. They pay tax on the buggy AND on the horse that pulls it. So, even the retired ones who don't farm, are basically paying double taxes on their transportation.

Many have produce stands. They collect and pay sales tax. Most build the sales tax into the price of the produce. But, very often have I gotten behind one at the bank or post office getting a money order to send the sales tax into the state or county from their produce stand.

I will also add, not only do they work harder than most of us, they also live longer and are healthier. No TV or computer, no microwave, often no cell phones (ones with businesses do have) no junk food, lots of fresh air, lots of exercise, no preservatives, and they use well water, with no chemicals added, few vaccines. So, what causes our cancers--they do not get exposed to. Never have I seen an elderly Amish person in a nursing home--they are taken care of by their family.

They also pay school taxes, yet they have their own school, which they pay tuition for in order to pay for the teachers salary. So, our schools take their money and they don't even use them.

They MORE than pay their way.

[Blessed]

I have several Amish neighbors. It's my understating that they pay federal and state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes. They opt out of the entire social security system, and don't pay FICA taxes.

We lived in Amish country for many years. All our Amish neighbors paid the taxes you mentioned and mot SS or FICA like you stated. I dont see where that is any different than a minister etc opting out.

[mom-from-missouri]

We lived in Amish country for many years. All our Amish neighbors paid the taxes you mentioned and mot SS or FICA like you stated. I dont see where that is any different than a minister etc opting out.

In my area, if they are self employed (farm, produce stands, quilt store, harness shop), they opt out.

But if they work for someone else they pay into it. We have a neighbors whose daughter works at a local grocery store. She pays into it, but will never draw out of it unless she leaves the Amish church. I know for a fact she does, as my daughter works with her and they were comparing paychecks over here a couple weeks ago. Her brother works during harvest season for a large farm, and also pays into it. Many also work at a cabinet shop that is not Amish run, and they also pay into it, and also, they do not use the unemployment--pay into it, but do not draw out of it.

[Money? What Money?]

[QUOTE=KTP;364629]True for SSDI but not true for SSI. Children can get SSI if the parents never paid a dime into the social security system.





This is true, however, there is usually a common misunderstanding between the two programs and many people confuse the benefits and where the money comes from to pay those benefits. It can be confusing because the Social Security Administration is responsible for administering both programs, but they are different programs.

SSDI (Social Security) benefits are paid from the Social Security Trust Fund, where your FICA taxes are going. This program does have what is called a Disabled Adult Child Benefit that allows for an unmarried child that became disabled prior to age 22 to receive benefits from a parent's record if the parent is receiving benefits or is deceased. If parent never paid into the system, then child would never qualify for benefits.

SSI (Supplemental Security Income) is a needs based program for those that are either 65 or older, blind at any age, or disabled at any age and have limited income and limited resources. This benefit is paid from the general revenue fund and in no way draws down the trust fund mentioned above. SSI could be paid to a low birth weight child, a 6 year old, a 55 year old, etc, even if they've never worked a day and never paid a dime into the trust fund. This benefit is capped at $710 a month in 2013.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard "so and so has never worked a day in their life and they are taking money away from my social security benefits". If they never worked a day, then they don't qualify for SSDI and therefore are not taking any money from the trust fund.

I hope this clears up some of the common confusion between the two programs.