McDonalds helps you budget!

[JoeP]

Fine, so let's instead rely on some more broadly supported statement, NOT my opinion:

"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control." - The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Most of the tension I've seen around these items revolves around who is to provide, determine eligibility, and audit these. Some say government, some say businesses/employer, some say charities, some say neighbors/family/community.

My only point of exception is this: those who engage in knowingly dangerous habits or intentionally sandbag in order to exploit these benefits. That has nothing to do with the declaration itself, but, rather, the morals of society as a whole. It could be argued that fixing those morals would make such a declaration unnecessary.

[Petunia 100]

Which makes one wonder why you posted the nonsense you posted in response to my comments.

There's your problem. You seem to have difficulty avoiding corrupting what others write into something you're capable of arguing against, instead of respecting what they say enough to respond to what they actually say instead of your corruption of it.

There is that good old deliberate inability to comprehend again.

"According to his needs" means pay someone whatever they need to live, as I am sure you realize quite well with no explanation from me.

But it's more fun to pretend not to comprehend, talk out both sides of your mouth, and make snarky remarks. And hey, there is always the remote chance that no one will notice.

[bUU]

There is that good old deliberate inability to comprehend again.

Stop with the nonsense. I comprehended what you wrote just fine. You apparently don't like that I called you out on how you corrupted what I wrote because you had no cogent rebuttal to what I actually did write. Are we done with the nonsense now, or are you going to go another round?

[Baby_nurse]

Most of the tension I've seen around these items revolves around who is to provide, determine eligibility, and audit these. Some say government, some say businesses/employer, some say charities, some say neighbors/family/community.

My only point of exception is this: those who engage in knowingly dangerous habits or intentionally sandbag in order to exploit these benefits. That has nothing to do with the declaration itself, but, rather, the morals of society as a whole. It could be argued that fixing those morals would make such a declaration unnecessary.

I'm still confused as to why it should be someone else's responsibility to provide those things.

[hamchan]

I think if you want to reap the benefits of living in a capitalist society then you have a responsibility towards those that create the foundation of our economy. Large businesses would be totally unable to function without people on the bottom rungs doing the hard work.

FTR I am saying this as someone who makes over 4x the federal minimum wage and pays out plenty in taxes. This isn't self interest talking.

[Mjenn]

In your opinion only.

Our constitution doesn't even guarantee it. It only promises life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is our job to pursue happiness in our own way. If someone didn't bother listening in school, so they ended up not being educated enough to get a better job, why should we provide for them? I grew up with the philosophy of if someone doesn't want to work, then he shouldn't be given food to eat. Let him work for it. No country in the world is rich enough to provide what you want given to all. Morals has nothing to do with it.

Not true, many countries do provide all of those things, and are quite wealthy. In fact, the Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland constantly rank in the top world economies and they consider most of the things Buu listed as things at the basic level of living in their country.

In Denmark, the welfare calculations include in the basic standard of living, that you can afford to have a TV set. In Sweden, you have the right to a daily newspaper. There is a lot you can do with tax money if you are not running 2 wars on the other side of the globe. But that is another political point.


I agree with Buu, no man is an island, and we cannot have a country with a lot of islands. Personally, I have seen way more insane health insurance roulette in the US than I have ever seen living in Europe or Asia. So I am really unsure how anyone is supposed to 'do it themselves'.

As a small business owner I fully understand and appreciate wanting to be your own person - and be independent, but i don't want to live in a society where my neighbor is dying in the middle of the street because he cannot afford healthcare, even if he made some really stupid choices.

[Gailete]

One has to wonder why you object to morality.

You have never met me and have no right to even comment like that on my morality, but I will tell you that I am one of the most moral people you would have ever met. But that doesn't mean that we need to provide all for those how won't work for it. I grew up poor. I scrubbed bathroom floors on my hands and needs to pay my way through college along with several other jobs that I juggled throughout those years. I've held plenty of minimum wage jobs, and still I supported myself and gave to those poorer than myself. I have great compassion for the poor and the truly destitute, but none for those that by their own actions have doomed themselves to not being able to make a so called living wage. As I said it is doable to those who are willing to embrace frugal living if that is what is needed. Nothing gripes me more than people puffing on cigarettes complaining about how they don't make enough on welfares while burning up $5-10 a day on cigarettes which comes to $150-300 a month which they could be using for living expenses. While I supported myself on minimum wage I was giving away 10% of my gross pay which has been my lifelong habit. Not to give myself a pat on the back but to let you know that I take things like this very seriously. You speak big, but what do you give up consistently so that others can have what they need? Do make a high wage? Are you giving part of it away so that other families can also live well? Do you live in a house bigger than you really need or invite others to share it with you? All we hear from you is a lot of hot air. It is great to argue a philosophical position, it is another to LIVE that philosophical position.

In fact, the Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland constantly rank in the top world economies and they consider most of the things Buu listed as things at the basic level of living in their country

And they pay some of the highest taxes in the world. That is their choice. I would be willing to bet that there are still poor people in those countries no matter how good their system is.

This is my last post on this topic and I will no longer respond as at this point BUU is just acting like the big bully next door.

[disneysteve]

Warning! It Is Fine To Disagree But The Insults And Personal Attacks Need To Stop. Please Stop Calling Other Posters Liars Or Questioning Their Morality. If It Continues, The Thread Will Be Closed And You Will Receive Infractions On Your Personal Accounts.

Thank You

[josetann]

Suppose they were suddenly to begin paying $17 per hour and providing health insurance. Would it still be easy to get a job there? No, it would become competitive. Those with no work history and/or skills would have a hard time landing a job at McDonald's. Does that improve their situation, when they can no longer obtain a job at all?

How much are you willing to pay for a Big Mac? What if there aren't enough people willing to pay $15 for a McDonald's value meal? Will McDonald's just agree to operate at a loss? How long before they leave the US market?

Minimum wage in Australia is around $16. The AUD is nearly on parity with the USD (it was higher earlier this year, now it's dropped a bit lower, but still pretty close). So, every single person working at McDonald's, or KFC, or in a supermarket, or whatever, is making a living wage. Yes, cost of living is a bit higher, but not significantly so. No, value meals don't cost $15. There may not be a dollar menu, but there's plenty of $2 items (and, if memory serves, an ice cream cone can be had for 30 cents). Oh, and I'm sure someone will find the prices (they do seem to vary by region, just like in the US); do note that the price shown is the price paid (i.e., price includes sales tax).

Do note that the $16 is a minimum wage; I've heard that (some, all?) Aldi pays $20+/hr to all their employees, and this didn't seem to be a huge deal. And there are instances where you might actually get paid less than this minimum wage, such as teenagers (someone under 16 only has to be paid $6.03/hr; hrm, maybe I need to put my 7yr old to work...). Info for those interested: http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/natio...s/default.aspx

So yeah, it's possible to more than double current wages, and not have prices double as well.

[bUU]

I agree with Buu, no man is an island, and we cannot have a country with a lot of islands.

Especially islands that move around and interact with each other.

[Petunia 100]

Minimum wage in Australia is around $16. The AUD is nearly on parity with the USD (it was higher earlier this year, now it's dropped a bit lower, but still pretty close). So, every single person working at McDonald's, or KFC, or in a supermarket, or whatever, is making a living wage. Yes, cost of living is a bit higher, but not significantly so. No, value meals don't cost $15. There may not be a dollar menu, but there's plenty of $2 items (and, if memory serves, an ice cream cone can be had for 30 cents). Oh, and I'm sure someone will find the prices (they do seem to vary by region, just like in the US); do note that the price shown is the price paid (i.e., price includes sales tax).

Do note that the $16 is a minimum wage; I've heard that (some, all?) Aldi pays $20+/hr to all their employees, and this didn't seem to be a huge deal. And there are instances where you might actually get paid less than this minimum wage, such as teenagers (someone under 16 only has to be paid $6.03/hr; hrm, maybe I need to put my 7yr old to work...). Info for those interested: http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/natio...s/default.aspx

So yeah, it's possible to more than double current wages, and not have prices double as well.

That's interesting. Do you know how other labor costs compare between the US and Australia? Payroll taxes, worker's compensation insurance, etc.? How about health insurance? Are there other labor costs which employers in Australia must pay but employers in the US do not?

I assume overhead costs such as lease rates, equipment, liability insurance are fairly similar? What about taxes? Similar?

What about competition for these jobs? Is there any? Do you have a lot or a little unemployment in Australia?

[Mjenn]

That's interesting. Do you know how other labor costs compare between the US and Australia? Payroll taxes, worker's compensation insurance, etc.? How about health insurance? Are there other labor costs which employers in Australia must pay but employers in the US do not?

I assume overhead costs such as lease rates, equipment, liability insurance are fairly similar? What about taxes? Similar?

What about competition for these jobs? Is there any? Do you have a lot or a little unemployment in Australia?

I don't know about Australia, but when I was living in Scandinavia, McDonalds had a campaign about how dispite their bad reputation, they did pay a decent salary according to union agreements. There is no minimum wage where I was living, but if you were over 18 you made 15 dollars per hour during regular hours, 17 per hour in the evenings and 20 at night -- for entry level positions.

Workers also have the right to about 5 weeks vacation if you work 12 months full time or 12% of however you work in either additional pay or time off. On top of that there is 33% payroll tax and according to the union agreement an additional pension contribution above the one included in the payroll tax (I think it is 3% for restaurants). The employer also has to pay 10 days of sick leave.

Rents are similar, you do need some kind of liability insurance (although as a small business owner, I think my coverage is a bit better and cheaper)

The state covers (for the payroll tax) - health insurance, sick leave past 2 weeks, paid leave to be home with a sick child, parental leave of 16 months (the restaurant must hold job).

Taxes paid by the individual range from around 28-33% depending on where they live ( I think most entry level McDonalds employees still earn under 60,000 per year so pay the lower rate).

There is ALOT of competition for these jobs -- youth unemployment is pretty high (perhaps you have sussed out why!)

McDonalds is still around in Scandinavia though and still making money!

[josetann]

That's interesting. Do you know how other labor costs compare between the US and Australia? Payroll taxes, worker's compensation insurance, etc.? How about health insurance? Are there other labor costs which employers in Australia must pay but employers in the US do not?

I assume overhead costs such as lease rates, equipment, liability insurance are fairly similar? What about taxes? Similar?

What about competition for these jobs? Is there any? Do you have a lot or a little unemployment in Australia?

I have no idea about other expenses. I would assume lease rates would be higher, due to housing costing more. But I could be wrong.

Universal health insurance here, so I wouldn't think that'd be a cost for an employer (though I guess they could offer private insurance if they wanted). There is a Medicare levy that is paid by the individual, but if your income is low enough even that's waived (to the best of my knowledge).

Unemployment is reported as 5.7% nationwide, though I don't know exactly how those figures are, well, figured. Link: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-1...r-june/4813876

Taxes are quite a bit higher here than in the US, especially on the surface. But so far, we're getting back more than we're paying in (same as in the US, but we're getting quite a bit more here in Australia). With a gross taxable income of $41k (this was after deductions, salary sacrificing, etc.; before all that it was closer to $55k or so) our tax liability was about $5k. Centrelink paid us over $13k since we have two young kids. Centrelink handles virtually ALL payments to individuals from the government; rent assistance, pension, Newstart Allowance (equivalent to unemployment), Austudy (you can get paid for going to university), Family Tax Benefit Part A and B (closest equivalent in US is the child tax credit), plus others.

People here still complain about how bad things are...but I think you'll find that anywhere you go.

I've seen some complaints about older workers not being able to get jobs typically filled by younger kids (like for instance, fast food), since you're legally allowed to pay a lower minimum wage to those under 21.