40% of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

[Petunia 100]

Given that Snodog was referring to Americans, I don't know how to reconcile what you're writing now with what you wrote earlier. Perhaps that's the intention and I suppose that's okay.

Good grief. There is nothing to reconcile. There is no sneaky intention to mislead you with a hidden meaning. I don't think Americans are members of the group "the poor". That is all.

[Wino]

It's not out of line to think that indeed some people may consider universal healthcare and lower crimes rates as bigger factors of "quality of life" than freedom to hunt and drive suvs without restriction. I'm not going to go into what country is best and whatnot as that will lead nowhere and will be specific to what one is looking for. Just pointing out that while you refer to bias, you yourself are showing extraordinary bias (and further your bias may well not be that of most folks).

You obviously missed the KEY SENTENCE in the paragraph: "If you take "freedom" into account, then the USA has the highest quality of life in the world." The keyword in the key sentence is "freedom." You have less "freedom" in all other countries in the world. But don't worry. You utopians are trying to limit our freedoms as well, and looks like you're succeeding. So much for the "last, best hope." Soon, we won't be free enough to make our own decisions, as everything will be dictated by our "betters" in Washington, DC.

As for wages not keeping up with productivity gains, that's the point......productivity gains disproportionately allocate gains to shareholders rather than to workers...leading to widening gaps in income.

For the record, i'm not a "poor utopian failing to take responsibility for oneselve".

So, I see that no one else can start his own business, sell stock, and/or become a shareholder? There is nothing - absolutely nothing - stopping anyone at all from saving money, investing in stock, and becoming a shareholder, or starting one's own business. Nothing except feeling sorry for oneself and refusing to take responsibility for one's own plight.

I heard a quote once, "Every man is self-made. Only the rich admit it." I live by that, and see the truth of it time and again. I've never seen a whiner get rich. They're so busy lookiing for someone else to blame, that they don't have the time to actually make an effort to improve their plight.

[thekid]

I don't think I actually pronounced myself on policy one way or another.

If anybody is interested, i'd consider myself a right leaning centrist.

I do believe that free markets are generally efficient and create the greatest overall wealth. I also believe that there are inequalities of opportunity, circumstance and talent level that create gaps inconsistent with a (relatively) harmonious society without state intervention. Capitalism becomes outright exploitation without state intervention. I believe in balance. Where that balance lies, is up for social discourse. All of western society is some form of free market economy with some state regulation and redistribution of wealth.

There is no need to get all black and white on this. There is even less need to spew angry stereotypes of people.

If you want to make an argument on freedom, maybe you could use less absurd examples than gas prices for suvs, short driving distances making suv driving less usefull for those that enjoy driving in an suv and hunting (something about hunting, not sure what).

For the record, i'm a venture capital lawyer. Make quite a good income. I also invest in equities quite heavily and have a very healthy net worth. I also work very hard and have done so since as long as i can remember. My inlaws are business owners and self made multi-millionnaires. My wife drives a (small) suv and likes it. Yet, quite astonishly for a non poor non lazy person, still believe in a centrist approach. Must be because i'm canadian and hence lack all the freedom!

[bUU]

Good grief. There is nothing to reconcile.

Respectfully, I don't believe that.

I don't think Americans are members of the group "the poor".

And I think that is a rationalization. But we can agree to disagree.

[thekid]

Rich/poor are usually not absolute terms, but rather relative terms that take their meaning in the context of a given reference group. Ie. There are indeed poor people within america and indeed if you look at the whole world there are not that many poor americans.

It's just a word. It takes its proper meaning from its context.

Within the context of this thread, started by an article on income in America, it's not a stretch to say America indeed has it's have-nots/poor.

[MelBell]

I was born in the wrong generation

I agree with greenskeeper, if you raise the minimum wage there will only be more unemployment. They have studied this before, and the results are always the same.

I always felt I was born in the wrong generation. It seems like things were easier in my parents generation. As long as you worked hard you could live and retire easily. I think part of the problem is increasing population, and not enough production to employ the increase.

Either way, things are going to have to change or explode. One or the other.

[Mjenn]

You obviously missed the KEY SENTENCE in the paragraph: "If you take "freedom" into account, then the USA has the highest quality of life in the world." The keyword in the key sentence is "freedom." You have less "freedom" in all other countries in the world. But don't worry. You utopians are trying to limit our freedoms as well, and looks like you're succeeding. So much for the "last, best hope." Soon, we won't be free enough to make our own decisions, as everything will be dictated by our "betters" in Washington, DC.



So, I see that no one else can start his own business, sell stock, and/or become a shareholder? There is nothing - absolutely nothing - stopping anyone at all from saving money, investing in stock, and becoming a shareholder, or starting one's own business. Nothing except feeling sorry for oneself and refusing to take responsibility for one's own plight.

I heard a quote once, "Every man is self-made. Only the rich admit it." I live by that, and see the truth of it time and again. I've never seen a whiner get rich. They're so busy lookiing for someone else to blame, that they don't have the time to actually make an effort to improve their plight.

While I don't agree with all of your points made previously, I think you do make some good ones. Such as how we can actually measure quality of life and what it means for different people. While many of the established studies to set strict guidelines as to what they are counting and measuring, they might not apply to everyone. It is important to question what is behind these figures and decide if they are important to you. Universal health care often bumps up countries because 'access to health care' is considered an important factor in quality of life, and in countries with national health care, everyone has the same. But here the US often does not rank poorly either in terms of access to health care, just not as highly as others.

Which is what baffles me about you hanging onto this word freedom, which is also equally difficult to quantify. What does that even mean? Like you, I have also spent over a decade living abroad -- and some countries I have certainly felt less free. But in some cases, where there are increased safety nets in place, I have felt more free. What does freedom mean? In the US you can still be incarcerated, in some states you can be forced to show your papers anytime a police officer thinks you may be an illegal immigrant, you have to follow the law, you can be detained if you are suspected of being a terrorist without being charged with anything, etc. etc. etc. I know that freedom is important for Americans, but how are Americans more free quantifiably?

I have a lot more choice with my last National Health Care program than I had with my American owned health insurance, and if I want to pay out of pocket here, it is STILL much cheaper. Out of pocket fees are 10% of what I paid in the US.

Thanks to a healthy safety net, it was much easier for me to take the plunge and start my own business --- less things at risk to my family.

I am not arguing that there are things that are not better in the US than in the rest of the world, I just do not know if 'Freedom' is something you can quantify for anyone better than quality of life. And many of the things that annoy the crap out of me having lived in more 'social program' friendly countries exist in many states in the US as well (government run liquour stores- blue laws - gambling, etc.....)

As for your final quote --- That one is a bit silly. Every man is self-made, only the rich admit it. I would have to laugh at Donald Trump's kids if they tried to convince me they were self-made.

As for the woman who doesn't believe there is poverty in the US -- I am jealous --- try spending a few weeks in deepest Appalachia and then see if you still believe that. I wish I could forget the things I have seen there.

[Petunia 100]

As for the woman who doesn't believe there is poverty in the US -- I am jealous --- try spending a few weeks in deepest Appalachia and then see if you still believe that. I wish I could forget the things I have seen there.

Oh, I know that there are people who live in poverty, all right. I also know that in this country, everyone is free to make choices which lead out of poverty. That is not true everywhere, and it is my belief that those born in this country are very fortunate. We have sufficient social programs in place that no one needs to die of hunger. Again, this is not true everywhere.

No, I have never been to Appalachia. What sort of things did you see there? Thanks.

[elfen lied]

it has a lot to do with the fact that we have traded off our manufacturing jobs for the service industry. people no longer see "buying American" as a symbol for well made. until we can go back to the prosperity of the 50's and 60's, we will not see the growth that we had in those times.

[KTP]

The thing I don't get, is how some immigrant from Asia or Europe can come to the USA almost penniless and in a matter of 15 to 20 years build up a nice nest egg, own a home, perhaps even own their own small business.

Then you have natural born USA citizens who stay poor generation after generation even though there are countless opportunities here to improve yourself.

The minimum wage jobs should be there for people who are in transition from high school to a higher education, or for those who desire a second job for more disposable income.

If you can't get A's in high school with free transportation, free lunch, free counseling, etc. then use those good grades to get assistance at a state college, you kind of deserve minimum wage.