Privatizing Social Security

[StepRightUp]

Wow. This has become quite a thread.

A couple things:

What if there were an elective gov't sponsored retirement plan? That way, those scared of the free market could use that and those with confidence in the market could opt out. More choice is always a good thing, isn't it?

Also, I think some people need to reevaluate their thinking about what is a right and a privilege. TJ was spot on when he limited inalienable rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That basically translates to "You have the right not to be messed with."

-A right is something inherent, a privilege something given.
-A right is a protection from the outside world; a privilege is something the outside world provides you.
-A right never disappears; a privilege depends on those around you. (If there isn't a doctor in the house, you're not getting health care.)
-A right exists since the dawn of time; a privilege evolves and emerges as humankind advances socially and technologically.

Throughout time, from the cavemen till now, humans have had a right not to be messed with. Humans never had a right to food, shelter, water, and health care.

Why not? Because those necessities are part of a zero-sum system. In order for them to be given to you, they must require action by another through their time, money, and energy. How could something like that possibly be a right?

We as a society can advance and decide if and how we would like to extend certain privileges to all. We do so largely through wealth distribution in the form of taxes.

Don't misunderstand me. I would love it if everyone had access to health care. But when we start calling it a right, we begin down a slippery slope: What kind of health care? Does that include eyecare? Chiro care? etc. Do I have a right to food? Clothing? What food? What clothing? A job? A good job?

Such vagaries do not accompany a right. A right is etched in stone and is inarguable. (I'm pretty sure no one disputes life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as rights.)

Living in the 1st world, we've taken a lot of things for granted, so much so that we start thinking (incorrectly) of many things as rights. We forget that it's the pursuit, not happiness itself, to which we each have a right.

[maat55]

[QUOTE]

Where the jobs and lower prices you keep mentioning anyway? I surely don't see it happening.

I'm guessing you have not bought a TV or DVD player lately. Sorry, we do not have the same market forces in healthcare, education or housing.

We still have numerous burdens on companies. Avoiding taxes is one of them, not having a steady longterm tax outlook is one, healthcare laws are problematic, competition with Asia and Mexico labor is another. You do not grow jobs with higher taxes. You do not grow jobs with energy limits, you do not grow jobs with new social burdens.

Research unemployment rates in socialized countries, you will see where we are/going.

Bush did not create jobs during his 8 year Presidency as ive stated. In fact we a actually lose jobs every year he was in office while giving taxpayers lowest tax rate ever. Ive supported this guy in the past which history tell us it was a mistake. He passed the prescription part d that wasn't paid. Put us more into deficits in two wars. At same time market collapsed thanks to Corporations that help put this country in the brink of collapse. Yet it was the US taxpayers that bailed these banks out.

I'm no supporter of Bush. Medicare D, promoting no down payments on housing and the bailouts were completely unconstitutional. GS,Citibank and others should be broke and in jail.

Again let's us close tax loopholes so everyone are tax fairly as it should. We can agree to disagree.

I have no problem with fair taxation. I just do not support raising more to pay for unconstitutinal programs. IMO, starve the beast is our only option for true change.

Btw I don't mind paying taxes for the services I received on daily basis,'police, fire, schools,'defense,helping the disabled and the poor, etc but I'm not willing to tolerate Corporations that take advantage of US tX code loopholes and get away with it.

Again, corporations are not getting away with anything. Corporate taxes are nothing more than a boogieman diversion tax on the populace.

I'm not saying all companies are crooks but many were!

I'm more worried about corps over-stating their profits than not enough. At the end of the day, all taxation comes from people, not corporations. If you have it in for CEO's, go after higher capital gains taxes for the wealthy.

[maat55]

Wow. This has become quite a thread.

A couple things:

What if there were an elective gov't sponsored retirement plan? That way, those scared of the free market could use that and those with confidence in the market could opt out. More choice is always a good thing, isn't it?

Also, I think some people need to reevaluate their thinking about what is a right and a privilege. TJ was spot on when he limited inalienable rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That basically translates to "You have the right not to be messed with."

-A right is something inherent, a privilege something given.
-A right is a protection from the outside world; a privilege is something the outside world provides you.
-A right never disappears; a privilege depends on those around you. (If there isn't a doctor in the house, you're not getting health care.)
-A right exists since the dawn of time; a privilege evolves and emerges as humankind advances socially and technologically.

Throughout time, from the cavemen till now, humans have had a right not to be messed with. Humans never had a right to food, shelter, water, and health care.

Why not? Because those necessities are part of a zero-sum system. In order for them to be given to you, they must require action by another through their time, money, and energy. How could something like that possibly be a right?

We as a society can advance and decide if and how we would like to extend certain privileges to all. We do so largely through wealth distribution in the form of taxes.

Don't misunderstand me. I would love it if everyone had access to health care. But when we start calling it a right, we begin down a slippery slope: What kind of health care? Does that include eyecare? Chiro care? etc. Do I have a right to food? Clothing? What food? What clothing? A job? A good job?

Such vagaries do not accompany a right. A right is etched in stone and is inarguable. (I'm pretty sure no one disputes life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as rights.)

Living in the 1st world, we've taken a lot of things for granted, so much so that we start thinking (incorrectly) of many things as rights. We forget that it's the pursuit, not happiness itself, to which we each have a right.

Well said..........

[tripods68]

Lowering taxes means no more jobs. Our taxes has been low in the last decade, yet, we've experienced two recession/depression (2001 and 2007 to present) with double digit unemployment in California and even worse in some part of this country. But hey it sound good in theory, but it is not the reality.

I agree about the surcharge to those making at least a million a year.

"Starve the beast" = Is this a code word for Ryan 2012 budget plan to will eventually eliminate Medicare by 2022 as we know it today. Don't believe the HYPE as they say. You think a BLOCK GRANT of $8K a year to each recipient will be enough to pay for their health care as people gets old and sicker? 85% of the cost of Medicare now are made up of 70+ years old who are sick. Private simply won't work.

Here's a quick solution: Send back home our troops from Iraq & Afghan war. Saved TRILLIONS of dollar from the get-go. Reform Medicare, not eliminate it; protect Social Security (which I paid for all my life; therefore I am entitled), decrease defense spending by half in the coming decades, while we citizen of this country should have access to affordable health care.

You want to protect jobs from Mexico, China and most other Asian countries? Put tariff in all goods and services. Eliminate NAFTA trade agreement that eliminated thousands of jobs in North American in early 90s.

[maat55]

[QUOTE]

Lowering taxes means no more jobs. Our taxes has been low in the last decade, yet, we've experienced two recession/depression (2001 and 2007 to present) with double digit unemployment in California and even worse in some part of this country. But hey it sound good in theory, but it is not the reality.

Are you associating prosperity and jobs with government programs and taxation? Do you for a second believe that raising taxes on the rich will cover the massive deficits and unfunded liabilities we face?

To be clear, I have not advocated for lower taxes, I have advocated for privitized Social Security. In addition, I am advocating that the federal government stay with national issues and not personal issues.

"Starve the beast" = Is this a code word for Ryan 2012 budget plan to will eventually eliminate Medicare by 2022 as we know it today.

It does not matter how noble you think the current medicare system is, it is not affordable. And, it is not constitutional. Only free market forces and personal responsibility will have a possitive affect on our future healthcare needs.

Don't believe the HYPE as they say. You think a BLOCK GRANT of $8K a year to each recipient will be enough to pay for their health care as people gets old and sicker? 85% of the cost of Medicare now are made up of 70+ years old who are sick. Private simply won't work.

Enslaving the next generation will not work. It does not matter how much you think someone is entitled to something, if it cannot be paid for, it will not be provided. You are living in a dream world if you think we can provide everyone healthcare.

Here's a quick solution: Send back home our troops from Iraq & Afghan war. Saved TRILLIONS of dollar from the get-go. Reform Medicare, not eliminate it; protect Social Security (which I paid for all my life; therefore I am entitled), decrease defense spending by half in the coming decades, while we citizen of this country should have access to affordable health care.

You could eliminate all defense spending and tax the rich 100% and not pay for these programs. The idea that you consider yourself entitled to enslave the next generation is why this country is headed for collapse.

You want to protect jobs from Mexico, China and most other Asian countries? Put tariff in all goods and services. Eliminate NAFTA trade agreement that eliminated thousands of jobs in North American in early 90s.

I've considered isolationism and it would not change our situation. First, it would invite the world to dump our treasuries. Second, we do not have the energy independence necessary to pull it off.

We should have never got in bed with China and signed NAFTA. We should have prepared for isolationism during Reagan, today, it is too late.

[tripods68]

Personal responsibility is a playbook for politician. Obesity rate in this country has reach massive epidemic--embedded in our society is not to exercise and being cough potato. That's the truth....No offense you LAZY fat Americans, except me fitness guru myself of course (kidding).

I don't buy the arguments that politicians often make, "don't saddle our kids with our future debt". It seems this arguments were probably in the 1930s before Social Security became law. It was the same argument made in the 60s before Medicare. Guess what? We are those "future kids" that they talked about back then, not saddling their kids with theirs. It seems logical to me, our kids will inherently be the one carrying our debt load as well in the future, much the same way we are now carrying current Social Security and Medicare recipients via tax payment transfer. It was supposed to be the end of the great society. Guess what.....our society still here and living.

The biggest problem made by this country is allowing NAFTA. If some TARIFF are imposed (a percentage of goods and services particularly China), I doubt they will dump US TREASURY. They hold roughly 900 million US debt in exchange rate with dollar. Their actions, if they do, will have far greater impact in their economy than to our but will force our dollar (free market) to be strong. The consequences, US might actually be force to STOP printing more since China will now have no surplus in reserve to invest with due to the fact that their goods and services will be higher (tariff inclusive). But then what's other investment alternative for China. It's the old playbook trick, our dollar, its safe haven.

But then we might force China to float YUAN currency in the market as it should rather than be pegged against the dollar artificially. There are far greater social benefits from all this, like reducing/eliminating child laborers, or sweat shops from China...that is if we US consumer stops buying Chinese made products. But i digress