My Christmas Experiment

[wincrasher]

Early in December, my sister confessed to me that she's been considering divorcing her husband. They just aren't making it and doesn't see anything getting better. She handles all the money in their household - he husband can't be trusted to pay any bills on time, or at all.

She makes a decent living as a school teacher. She's been at it for almost 20 years and puts money into her pension. After that and taxes, she takes home about $2500 a month. Her husband has a business that installs ceramic tile. Even in good times, he never seems to make any money. Now with housing in the tank, he isn't working at all. Just odd jobs here and there. He has been applying for jobs here and there, but of course, there aren't many. Their house is in her name, they have a 15 year note that is about 1/2 way thru - so payoff is just as their sons are ready for college.

She has been covering the bills for a long time. But one time to "help" him, she put alot of his debt on her low interest credit cards (about $45k). So with that and the bills, they are in trouble.

So I gave her $2500 so they could have some kind of Christmas. A condition of my "gift" was that she not tell her husband. So can you imagine my surprise when she saved the money and they had a very, very modest Christmas

So this gives me hope for them. I fully expected them to squander the money. My guess is their total Christmas spending for a family of 4 was $500, if that.

So I'm now considering 2 options. Giving them $1500 a month until her husband gets his act together, or paying off their credit card debt. I'm leaning towards the monthly allotment. I don't want her husband to know about this either - it's between her and me.

[wincrasher]

There are lots of other details that I've left out. She drives a 9 year old car that is paid off. She's had to pay his income taxes some years out of her savings, etc. He's had credit cards and loans he's defaulted on - upwards of $90k. His truck is about to be repossed - of course the loan is far higher than the value of the truck.

She does manage to save alittle money, but it's always wiped out by something her husband has done. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was intentionally sabotaging thier finances.

Our dear mother keeps telling her to divorce. Over money. It's alot of pressure I'm sure. But other than finances, her husband is a good guy, attentive father, etc. He's just really laid back, not ambitious. His family is full of really sucessful people, so it's really hard to understand.

[disneysteve]

While what you are considering is very generous, I don't see how it will solve any of their problems. If the problem is the guy is lacking ambition and incapable of controlling his spending, that isn't something you can fix by throwing money at the problem.

I can see why your sister is considering divorce.

[creditcardfree]

Could you clarify what the goal is? Why are you giving the money? Is it for her to build a divorce fund?

[disneysteve]

Could you clarify what the goal is? Why are you giving the money? Is it for her to build a divorce fund?

Ahh. Good question. If, in fact, you want to help her build up money to cut ties with this guy, I'd suggest that instead of giving to her, you just let her know about it and save it in a separate account yourself. Then when she needs it, give it to her. That would prevent anything else happening to the money.

[wincrasher]

my thinking is that I'm relieving the pressure until the economy improves and he can get a regular job. All their debt was related to his failed business.

It may just be postponing the inevitable, don't know. But I'm not a big believer in money problems justifying divorce.

[wincrasher]

LOL! Mom would give her money for a divorce, saving for it is not an issue.

[disneysteve]

my thinking is that I'm relieving the pressure until the economy improves and he can get a regular job. All their debt was related to his failed business.

Her husband has a business that installs ceramic tile. Even in good times, he never seems to make any money.

But one time to "help" him, she put alot of his debt on her low interest credit cards (about $45k).

He's had credit cards and loans he's defaulted on - upwards of $90k. His truck is about to be repossed

Is it really all due to his business? 45K in CCs that she took over, 90+K in loans that he has defaulted on and a truck loan that he can't pay.

Sounds to me like there could be bigger issues there. That's what I'm concerned about. Will getting a "regular" job actually solve his problems?

[Beppington]

I'm afarid this is a lifestyle problem you can't fix with money.

Give them money & when he finds out about it I bet his "odd jobs here & there" turn into no jobs.

This isnt a one-time catastrophic event where your money can fix a rare problem.

In fact, if they do make it, they'll probably be better off & a stronger, more-comitted-to-each-other couple if they fix it all on their own.

Or, if it ends in divorce your money was probably just wasted.

[Broken Arrow]

If, in fact, you want to help her build up money to cut ties with this guy, I'd suggest that instead of giving to her, you just let her know about it and save it in a separate account yourself. Then when she needs it, give it to her. That would prevent anything else happening to the money.

If it's seriously heading for a divorce, then yes, I absolutely agree with this.

I realize that every state is different, but when I went through mine, both parties had to list all of our assets, including everything in our bank accounts. If you give her money, then it's very likely she will end up with less money overall.

If I was in that position, instead of giving her money, I would just pay for the divorce lawyer. They don't care who pays them so long as they get paid, and her not touching a dime from you would not hinder her asset split.

[wincrasher]

Yes it's all due to his business. It runs the gambit - most of the time, he has to buy all the materials for the job up front. Then he has clients that don't pay, or he made a mistake and underbid the job. Or he had workers who get paid weather he gets paid or not. Then there is the equipment and the tools, the insurance, it goes on and on. It took 15 years to get to this point.

I do see the risk, that if he knows about the money, he might just sit back. I'd much rather use my contacts to just get him a job, but I've come up empty.

I'm trying to prevent a divorce here people, not encourage one. Their only problem here is money.

Another intersting bit - his brother is a divorce attorney. Sis is worried she may end up paying him alimony if they were to seperate!

It really is just a big 'ol mess. And I should probably stay out of it.

[Beppington]

Yes it's all due to his business. It runs the gambit - most of the time, he has to buy all the materials for the job up front. Then he has clients that don't pay, or he made a mistake and underbid the job. Or he had workers who get paid weather he gets paid or not. Then there is the equipment and the tools, the insurance, it goes on and on.

I do see the risk, that if he knows about the money, he might just sit back. I'd much rather use my contacts to just get him a job, but I've come up empty.

I'm trying to prevent a divorce here people, not encourage one. Their only problem here is money.

Another intersting bit - his brother is a divorce attorney. Sis is worried she may end up paying him alimony if they were to seperate!

You say his business runs the gambit, but in your original post: "Even in good times, he never seems to make any money."

This sounds like a guy who needs to get a regular job & quit trying to be a small business owner.

And, to have employees who get paid even when he doesn't ... Ridiculous.

I understand you're trying to prevent a divorce, I just don't think you should even try to do it with cash.

[disneysteve]

I'm not a big believer in money problems justifying divorce.

I'm trying to prevent a divorce here people, not encourage one. Their only problem here is money.

You say their "only" problem is money like that's not a big deal. Money problems are a leading cause for divorce with good reason.

I don't think picking up his slack by you giving them money is the answer to their problems. I understand that you don't want to see your sister get a divorce, but this is a problem they need to solve on their own, whatever the outcome may be.

Certainly, if their situation worsens and they are at risk of losing their home or unable to pay for food or basic medical care and you want to help them out then, that's a different story. But if your goal is to head off a divorce, I think you need to let them work out their own issues without outside interference. JMHO.

[wincrasher]

I meant to say the reasons for not making money are varied. He's had quite a few good projects, it just seems like something always goes wrong and he can't get a change order.

I agree, paying your partners ahead of yourself is stupid. Paying your hourly employees ahead of yourself is unfortunate, but must be done.

Like I said in one of my posts, he is shutting his business down and looking for a job. So far, he only gets a few days work here and there from people he knows.

I don't really know if he could earn enough to seriously address his debts or if he even intends to. At one point he talked with a bankruptcy attorney, but didn't have the cash upfront to file.

Since they've kept thier finances separate - she has the house, her car and her own credit cards (not joint) - not sure how it would effect her. I'm sure in a divorce, all "her" stuff, including savings and pension, would be community property. All his "stuff" is debt.

What's funny is that he could care less. He doesn't appear worried about anything - things just eventually work out. She's the one who frets and worries and starts arguements about money. It's very peculiar.

[wincrasher]

Steve - that's what I worry about. I also worry about my nephews being effected by their folks arguing all the time. I worry about the things they can't do or don't have because of money.

To me arguing about or not having money is stupid. I've always just gone out an earned it. I've spent plenty stupidly too. But if I need more, I just made it. It bothers me that my BIL would let that screw up his family.