Why we never go out for drink$$$

[shanecurran]

A tip should be a thank you for good service. That just isn't the case in this country. Diners are expected to leave a 15-20% tip no matter what. The money loses its significance at that point. In so many restaurants today, if you have at least 6 in your party, they automatically add an 18% tip so the customers don't even get a say in the matter (unless they want to give more than that). On more than one unfortunate occasion, I've had to speak to a manager and downgrade that automatic tip because it simply wasn't earned or deserved. That shouldn't happen.

Let me play devils advocate for a minute here. My first and most important point is this: If you feel that the server does not deserve the tip, then you have a right to inform the manager that you would like the automatic gratuity removed. On the other hand if the server does a great job of serving and get stiffed by a large party (because there is no 18% autograt on large parties) they have no repercussions, and in many cases this will make or break the servers night. They cannot talk to the manager and say "I did a great job and deserve a larger tip."

The reason autograt is in place for large parties is to protect the server. In many cases a large party will be the only table that server has for the evening and therefore their income for the day depends on that one tip. If it is a large party and the check is split, people often have trouble (either in calculation or forgetful/oblivious/cheap) with tipping. This is very similar to the problem of public goods in economics (the smaller the portion of the total check they owe, or the more people in the party the less obligated each person feels to properly tip).

I will give you one example. At the upscale casual establishment I mentioned in an earlier post, the owner had the same philosophy as you and would not add gratuity to any table no matter how large the table was. I had a a couple I waited on one lunch (some doctors who were in town for sail boat racing). They had a great experience and so inquired about bringing a bunch of their boat friends (20-30 people) in for dinner one night. I told them it would be no problem, but that they needed to make the reservation at least a few days in advance for a party that large. It ended up being 27 people. I shared the table with one other server and that was to be our only table of the evening. We knew that they were going to be drinking wine so we prepared by bringing down extra wine glasses that we stored upstairs. We did not know what type of wine they would drink, so we polished chardonnay, sav blanc (default white glass), Cabernet (default red), and Pinot Noir glasses. Since they were stored and dusty we had to wash and polish each glass. I don't know how much experience you have polishing Riedel glassware, but this was no small task. We reorganized one of the rooms to accommodate them among other small preparations. They ended up drinking lots of wine and having four courses (tapas, app/salad, entree, and dessert). Given the size of the check (over $3,000) our owner comped the dessert. We ran the entire evening, to accommodate their every need and the service was impeccable. The party enjoyed themselves so much that they shook our hands and complimented us on their way out the door. There is no doubt in my mind that 25 of the 27 people would have tipped 20%, but the check was given to a couple that was not accustomed to our standard of tipping (foreigners). They left 10% and the old verbal tip "thank you so much, everything was wonderful." After tip out, I made less than I would have on an average night, and worked harder (with the exception of one or two nights) than I had ever worked in the restaurant. I quit about a month later, for other reasons, but the policy of never autograting played a part in my departure. I realized later after speaking with other servers in the area, that this particular restaurant failed to attract certain experienced servers based on this policy.

BTW it is considered a form of discrimination and illegal for a restaurant to pick and choose when they add gratuity and when they don't. If the policy is to add gratuity to parties of five or more, they have to do this every time. Because of this I am not offended when a server adds gratuity to a check. It doesn't necessarily mean that they fear your tipping habits, they are doing what they should to protect the establishment.

I always inspect the check, and if gratuity is added without the server verbally telling me they will receive not a penny more than the gratuity. If the server informs me that the gratuity has been added I will almost always leave more than 18%.

[shanecurran]

I understand that owners want to maintain a certain atmosphere and serving pitchers at an upscale place may not really fit the atmosphere but you can't have it both ways. Either you need the staffing level to keep the glasses filled promptly or you need to serve pitchers on request.

In theory this makes sense but to strike a balance is more complicated than you think. If it were as simple as hiring another front of the house employee at $2.50-$4 per hour, the owner would not hesitate for a second. The owner has to consider not only how much he pays in wages, but how this will affect the overall income of his/her employees. If you hire another server, or backserver/busser then the income of the existing servers is reduced.

Back to my previous upscale casual example: In this particular restaurant, there were two servers and no backservers during lunch. Lunches in this restaurant were terrible shifts because people need to get back to work and are in a hurry. Check averages are smaller than dinner, and the hours are not conducive to the average restaurant employees lifestyle/sleeping schedule. They are a necessary evil for the server (who makes most of their income during dinner service) and often a right of passage for less senior employees. We pulled tips as a matter of choice in the restaurant. Hiring another server during lunch would have reduced our income by 1/3. At this point I and the other employee would have found that the added burden of working lunch would be so great that we would have quit immediately. Now the owner would be forced to find two new employees willing to work at a defacto wage that was cut by 1/3. These servers would inevitably be inferior, and we would have a situation where despite there being 3 instead of two employees, the table would be forced to wait for their refills of iced tea.

[shanecurran]

Back to the original topic of this thread and the relation of that to servers, one thing I notice is the reaction of some servers after the drink order. Clearly that is the indicator Shane uses as well. When I don't order a beer/drink I can't tell you how irritating it is if the server has a noticeable demeanor change. Like the server "knows" that we must be "cheapskates", I "know" this server is going to pay a little less attention to me. It makes for a little less positive dining expereince.

LOL. Moral of the story: If you go out for an evening on the town, order a drink, cut loose and enjoy yourself!

[Scanner]

As far as servers not being salespeople and just service people, unfortunately, or fortunately, not true.

There is a concept known as "Suggestive Selling" that I was trained (and it does work)

SCANNER: Good evening DisneySteve. My name is Scanner, I'll be your server tonight. May I start you off with a flavored iced tea or cold Miller Genuine Draft from the bar?

DISNEYSTEVE: No thank you. I'll just have a glass of water.

SCANNER: Awesome. I'll be back in a second with that. While you are looking at the menu would you both like to split an order of the garlic Tuscany Cheese Bread?

DISNEYSTEVE: No thank you. . .I'll just be getting the cheapest thing on the menu tonight. I have a reputation as Savings College President to uphold, you know. We did a whole piece on picking the cheapest thing on the menu at Savings Advice Dot Com, you know.

SCANNER: Very good, sir. That would be baked chicken with salt and broccoli and a toothpick.

That's an example of Suggestive Selling. . .good servers will use it and you can expect a 30% "bite" rate on it actually as often, I admit, I go into a resteraunt and really have no idea what I want.

[Scanner]

Reminds me of a funny Benny Hill skit I saw the other night on Antenna TV. . .Benny Hill is the waiter of that old bald man and his young hottie newlywed and it's all a silent film and he tries to talk him into the best dish on the menu as they are out to eat as newlyweds.

The old man insists on pointing to the daily special, which is something like hotdogs and cabbage, with his newlywed wife.

Benny Hill then takes off his maitre dee outfit and proceeds to wait on him in a rude fashion. Yanks the fancy tablecloth away and is smoking while he's waiting on them.

Classic.

[disneysteve]

if the server does a great job of serving and get stiffed by a large party (because there is no 18% autograt on large parties) they have no repercussions, and in many cases this will make or break the servers night. They cannot talk to the manager and say "I did a great job and deserve a larger tip."

The reason autograt is in place for large parties is to protect the server.

Absolutely. I totally understand why the practice exists. Lots of people are lousy tippers on their own and in a larger group, it becomes even more of a problem if money is being collected from everyone (as opposed to one person picking up the tab). Trust me. Many times over the years I have kicked in extra for the tip because my dining partners underpaid and I wasn't about to stiff the servers.

I always inspect the check, and if gratuity is added without the server verbally telling me they will receive not a penny more than the gratuity. If the server informs me that the gratuity has been added I will almost always leave more than 18%.

Typically, if there is an automatic gratuity, it is clearly stated on the menu or even a little notice when you enter the place. I don't think I've ever had one just appear on the bill without me already knowing that would happen.

LOL. Moral of the story: If you go out for an evening on the town, order a drink, cut loose and enjoy yourself!

Since I'm almost always the one driving, the most I'll get is a diet Coke if I want to splurge. Very, very rarely will I have alcohol when we're out unless we're at the kind of place where I know we'll be dining for 2+ hours and the drink will be mostly out of my system by the time we leave for home.

SCANNER: Very good, sir. That would be baked chicken with salt and broccoli and a toothpick.

Skip the salt and keep the broccoli and that'll be fine.

That's an example of Suggestive Selling. . .good servers will use it and you can expect a 30% "bite" rate on it actually as often, I admit, I go into a resteraunt and really have no idea what I want.

I often go in not knowing what I want either. That's what the menu is for.

[thekid]

We seldomly, if ever, go out for drinks anymore. I do remember arriving early at a hotel couple months ago and ordering a drink for my wife and myself.

Cost some $32! lol (and cries)!

[shanecurran]

I often go in not knowing what I want either. That's what the menu is for.

Reinforces my thought that you would enjoy a restaurant where you could press a button to order your food. I know the french laundry uses i pads to display their wine list. Maybe i pads that are linked directly to the kitchen and the bar so that you could place your order without having to interact with the server, who god forbid try to offer a recommendation.

[disneysteve]

I often go in not knowing what I want either. That's what the menu is for.

Reinforces my thought that you would enjoy a restaurant where you could press a button to order your food. I know the french laundry uses i pads to display their wine list. Maybe i pads that are linked directly to the kitchen and the bar so that you could place your order without having to interact with the server, who god forbid try to offer a recommendation.

We have a fundamentally different view of the job of a server, which is perfectly fine. I'm happy to agree to disagree. You see a server as a salesperson whose job it is to push certain (more costly) items over other (less costly) items. I see a server as someone whose job it is to take my order and bring it to me. If, and only if, I ask a question about a menu item, the server should be knowledgeable about the options and be able to describe the item in more detail. A server shouldn't make recommendations unless asked for recommendations, and I, personally, would never ask a server for recommendations. As I said, I know what I like and dislike and I know how much I want to spend. I'm quite capable of making my own decision regarding what I want to eat. I don't need someone else to help me with that decision.

[yugugelizer]

I agree with DS. I am (for the next two weeks) a server at a fine dining restaurant, and will never "over-recommend" items to a table no matter how much my owners would like me to. I suggest a couple things (drinks, apps), but at a certain point, it gets annoying.

But, for those that believe that a servers job is just taking an order, and bringing items to and from your table, there are many other "jobs." Most importantly seems to be being personable. Many tables want to come in and talk to you for an hour, not that I mind when I*'m slow, but when I have 4+ other tables, I just can't. Secondly, knowledge of every item on the menu (it is usually a bit daunting to know all ingredients in items.)

Long story short, at my restaurant, servers tip out 5% on sales. That means that even if I make 20% on every check (what I shoot for), I will leave with 15%. My point is, when you give someone something like a 10% tip, it is basically a slap in the face (sometimes it is deserved.) Prices are listed on the menu, don't make it the servers problem that you overspent.

[shanecurran]

Long story short, at my restaurant, servers tip out 5% on sales. That means that even if I make 20% on every check (what I shoot for), I will leave with 15%. My point is, when you give someone something like a 10% tip, it is basically a slap in the face (sometimes it is deserved.) Prices are listed on the menu, don't make it the servers problem that you overspent.

I knew a girl who worked in a restaurant that had a complicated system of tip outs. She had to tip out 10% of bar sales. One slow night she walked with essentially nothing because one table of foreigners tipped less than 10% on a check that had $0 in food sales.

[disneysteve]

But, for those that believe that a servers job is just taking an order, and bringing items to and from your table, there are many other "jobs." Most importantly seems to be being personable. Many tables want to come in and talk to you for an hour, not that I mind when I*'m slow, but when I have 4+ other tables, I just can't. Secondly, knowledge of every item on the menu (it is usually a bit daunting to know all ingredients in items.)

Thanks for another opinion. I don't expect a server to know everything about every item. I do expect a server to promptly get the answer, though. My wife has a food allergy so we'll often ask about how an item is prepared in the kitchen and we need a correct answer before ordering.

[disneysteve]

Prices are listed on the menu, don't make it the servers problem that you overspent.

Absolutely. If you can't afford to tip, stay home. Or just order something that you are able to afford including the tip.

Still, I'd much rather that restaurants raise all of the prices 18%, pay servers a reasonable wage and eliminate tipping entirely.

[shanecurran]

Still, I'd much rather that restaurants raise all of the prices 18%, pay servers a reasonable wage and eliminate tipping entirely.

This is basically the European system. Service over there is not as good as the US. Have you ever been to a country with this type of system and do you think it is superior to our system?

[disneysteve]

This is basically the European system. Service over there is not as good as the US. Have you ever been to a country with this type of system and do you think it is superior to our system?

Yes and no. I haven't really traveled to places where that is the system but I have vacationed in all-inclusive settings where there was a no-tipping policy. All costs were included in the price for the stay. We've done that several times and service was always excellent.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried a no-tipping system here in the US.