Why we never go out for drink$$$

[disneysteve]

If you went to a doctors office and needed your tonsils removed how would you feel if you got a lower quality of service than the guy who got a liver transplant last week?

Being a doctor, I agree. I see patients who have no insurance, crappy insurance, decent insurance and top-notch insurance. I treat them all equally, giving them as much time and the best care I can give. I don't adjust my level of service or the quality of care I deliver based on how much I'm getting paid. To do so would be reprehensible.

For a server, you have no idea how well someone will tip. You may assume the person ordering more will tip better, but you know that isn't always the case. The guy who orders the $10 pasta dish may leave $5 while the person who orders the $30 surf and turf may also leave $5. You should serve everyone well because that is your job and you want to do it well. If you are only in it for the money, find yourself another job.

[shanecurran]

That is really unfortunate, though I'm sure other servers probably do the same. When I work, I try to do my best all the time, not just when I think there is the most in it for me.

I am not saying that I would purposely give worse service to someone who is spending less money and in many cases if you are not busy they will receive the same amount of service as anyone else, but servers and bartenders have a finite amount of time. If you are really busy as often happens, you will have to choose how to most effectively spend your time. I am being honest and many people don't understand because they have never worked in a restaurant. If someone is sharing a pasta and ordered a coffee or hot tea (most time consuming and lowest cost = least amount of money for the time spent) I am not going to hustle to offer them a free refill on coffee when there are other guests in need of another glass of wine at $10 a pop. I am being rational, everyone has to decide how to allocate their time in any business, you may be giving every task your best and good servers do the same thing, but you can't tell me that you will not spend more time on a project that will earn you more money.

[shanecurran]

A server who gives better (preferential) treatment to one customer over another based on what they ordered is a lousy server. When I was in the industry, I gave great service to EVERYONE, no matter how big or small their order. Everybody should be treated equally. Servers who don't do that are missing out. They are always convinced that people who ordered less don't tip as well (well, duh, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy since you aren't giving them the same service).

Do you know what the most important factor that determines the size of your tip? It is not how the people are dressed, their knowledge of wine and table manners, or even the service you provide. The most important factor is check size. This is the sad truth for many of you who are upset about crappy service when you order an iced tea and split a pasta or chicken dish. From a philosophical point of view this may not sit well with you, but it is reality. People will as a general rule tip between 15 and 20%. I don't think that people who order less expensive items are in general worse tippers, in percentage terms they are just as likely to tip 20% as the guy who orders the osso bucco and an expensive bottle of wine, but the $ amount of the tip will be much more because the check is larger.

Back to the previous example: If I look out on the floor while very busy and see that two of my four tops need wine and another four top needs free refills of coke what am I going to do. It will take roughly the same amount of time to get 8 glasses of wine as it will to refill 4 cokes (most often servers refill their own soft drinks while a bartender will pour the wine). I will make an additional $0 for refilling the cokes, and an additional $16 for getting 8 glasses of wine ($10 each times 8 = $80 times 20% is $16 tip). And realize that my instinct to serve the glasses of wine first is in line with the incentives of the owners, and may even be complimented by my manager on my efficient use of time.

Anyone who says they gave great service to EVERYONE is either lying or never worked in a busy restaurant.

[shanecurran]

For a server, you have no idea how well someone will tip. You may assume the person ordering more will tip better, but you know that isn't always the case. The guy who orders the $10 pasta dish may leave $5 while the person who orders the $30 surf and turf may also leave $5. You should serve everyone well because that is your job and you want to do it well. If you are only in it for the money, find yourself another job.

It depends.

Sometimes you know how someone will tip because they are a regular and you know their habits. More often than not you can tell what type of tipper the person will be the second they walk in the door. There are always suprises and you will never know with 100% certainty, which enforces my previous point: THE MOST IMPORTANT DETERMINANT OF THE SIZE OF THE TIP IS THE SIZE OF THE CHECK.

[disneysteve]

I gave better service to tables who ordered more expensive plates and drinks.

I am not saying that I would purposely give worse service to someone who is spending less money

Sounds like you are contradicting yourself here.

Do you know what the most important factor that determines the size of your tip? It is not how the people are dressed ... The most important factor is check size.

More often than not you can tell what type of tipper the person will be the second they walk in the door.

Very interesting. So you can't tell what type of tipper they will be based on appearance but you can somehow psychically know by looking at them walk in the door how big their check will be.

Look, I understand that you'd rather refill a $10 glass of wine than a free Coke. So fill the wine first and then go back and fill the Coke. Part of your job as a server is to help make money for the restaurant. I get that. But the person who is only having the Coke today might be back next week ordering the $10 glass of wine unless he gets crappy service today in which case he may not come back.

Let me go back to my example of leaving the 100% tip for a slice of pizza. That happened at a brand new restaurant and that was my first time in there. While there, I checked out the menu and atmosphere and quality of service. Based on the friendly attentive service I got for my $2 slice of pizza, I will definitely go back there and probably bring the family for dinner. Had they blown me off because I was only getting a slice of pizza, I'd probably cross the place off my list of potential places to dine in the future.

[shanecurran]

I don't consider a server or bartender to be a salesperson but rather a service person. They take my order and bring me what I asked for. If I order pasta, they aren't going to try and get me to buy filet mignon. If I order a Coke, they aren't going to talk me into a single malt scotch.

From your discussion thus far, I can tell you are the type of guy who would not change their consumption decision at a restaurant based on a server recommendation, but most people will, and if the server is really good, you will not even realize that you have.

In describing the specials the server can use subtle body language and inflection in voice to steer the patron toward a certain dish, or sometimes they will give a flat out suggestion (depending on the person). They can highlight certain items on the menu that are more interesting and more $. At one of the restaurants I used to work for, I would point to the stuffed chicken ($24) as opposed to the grilled chicken ($18). Instead of highlighting the souvlaki ($20) I would direct their attention to the whole rack of lamb ($35) and finally I would highlight the NY Strip ($28) and opposed to the flank steak, even though we sold Filet Mignon ($32), describing the NY as a hearty choice to the stocky male tourist, or a more flavorsome cut of meat to the woman while pointing out that it would pair well with our house cabernet (a $10 glass of wine as opposed to other $7-$9 glasses) Fortunately, I was not only selling these because they were more expensive, but because they were better dishes that the customer could enjoy.

The server can also use other techniques as well. People most often only remember the first an last thing mentioned. For example if someone ordered a "vodka martini" I would ask if they prefer Belvedere, stoli, smirnoff, or grey goose (while failing to mention the well vodka) a lousy server will not even offer these choices because they are lazy or incompetent. The customer will often hear this as "would you like belvedere or grey goose?" If someone ordered a glass of white zin ($7 and disgusting), I would offer to bring them a taste of the Riesling ($9 and the customer will have discovered a new varietal that is also sweet and much more quaffable).

Also, a good server/salesperson will assume the sale. I would not see an empty glass of wine and offer another at the table. Instead I would ask the bartender for the bottle so that I could bring it to the table politely saying "can I pour another glass of wine for you?" to the reply "well since you are already here, sure!" Or bringing desserts to the table to display them as opposed to asking if they are interested in dessert. If you ask the table if they are interested in dessert one person is likely going to overpower the table by saying "I don't want any...But...Would anyone else like one?" Instead if you assume the sale and bring the tray/menu or verbal the desserts, the loudmouth is forced to sit politely as I describe the desserts and the mouths at the table start to water.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Just to be clear, I tip very well. How I feel about the whole institution of tipping does not stop me from following the usual guidelines. Just the other night, I left a server a 100% tip in fact. I stopped into a casual Italian place to get a quick snack. I thought I'd order at the counter but the waitress asked me to take a seat and she'd take care of me. All I really wanted was a slice of pizza. I felt kind of silly having table service for that and when I left, I tipped her the price of the slice. She was very nice and didn't treat me any differently for having only ordered an item for a couple of dollars.

Although you felt like you left an exorbitant tip, to her the tip size was probably average when compared to other tables and amount of time consumed.

Everyone has their own method. For me, If I am sitting at a bar for more than a quick drink, I will tip $5 per person of 20% whichever is greater. I think if you are taking a stool and their time, especially if they are a conversationalist, then there should be some absolute minimum (even if it is happy hour and I am drinking $2 bud lights). If they buy me a drink I would like to tip at least $10 per person. I also always tip at least $1 per drink and if it is a time consuming concoction I will tip $2-3. But that's just me. Everyone has their own method.

BTW for everyone who doesn't like the institution of tipping: From the perspective of the other side of the bar I wish I could refuse tips from some people. For the guy who comes in wants 4 refills on coffee and a pasta, who treats me like a peon, is rude etc. I would have loved to tell him "you can save your 10% tip because you obviously needs it more than I do, and I am not going to pretend to give you good service, because you don't deserve it, please don't bother tipping me!"

[shanecurran]

Sounds like you are contradicting yourself here.

Very interesting. So you can't tell what type of tipper they will be based on appearance but you can somehow psychically know by looking at them walk in the door how big their check will be.

This is my point: Yes I could often tell what type of tipper the person was going to be the second they walked through the door, but in the end it doesn't matter (unless they are extremely good tippers or extremely poor tippers where check size doesn't matter, but the only way to know this is if you have waited on them before), the most important part is the check size (and you don't have to guess what it will be, they will reveal it).

I don't have to guess how much you will spend, I will have a great idea when you order your drinks, and will know with 95% certainty after you have ordered your food.

[disneysteve]

They can highlight certain items on the menu that are more interesting and more $. At one of the restaurants I used to work for, I would point to the stuffed chicken ($24) as opposed to the grilled chicken ($18).

For example if someone ordered a "vodka martini" I would ask if they prefer Belvedere, stoli, smirnoff, or grey goose (while failing to mention the well vodka) a lousy server will not even offer these choices because they are lazy or incompetent. The customer will often hear this as "would you like belvedere or grey goose?" If someone ordered a glass of white zin ($7 and disgusting), I would offer to bring them a taste of the Riesling ($9

Also, a good server/salesperson will assume the sale. I would not see an empty glass of wine and offer another at the table. Instead I would ask the bartender for the bottle so that I could bring it to the table politely saying "can I pour another glass of wine for you?"

My wife and I dine out pretty often and we go to a fair number of higher end restaurants. It isn't at all unusual for us to spend $150 or more for dinner for the two of us so I'm not talking about Chili's and Applebee's kinds of meals. That said, I can tell you that if we encountered the type of "service" you are describing here, we would likely never return to that restaurant and we would warn all of our friends to avoid it as well. Perhaps it worked for you but it is not the type of experience we are seeking when we go out for a fine meal.

[shanecurran]

My wife and I dine out pretty often and we go to a fair number of higher end restaurants. It isn't at all unusual for us to spend $150 or more for dinner for the two of us so I'm not talking about Chili's and Applebee's kinds of meals. That said, I can tell you that if we encountered the type of "service" you are describing here, we would likely never return to that restaurant and we would warn all of our friends to avoid it as well. Perhaps it worked for you but it is not the type of experience we are seeking when we go out for a fine meal.

How is this different from the type of service you expect?

[shanecurran]

Look, I understand that you'd rather refill a $10 glass of wine than a free Coke. So fill the wine first and then go back and fill the Coke.

You are obviously missing my point. I am not proposing that the server refill the wine and then twiddle their thumbs and ignore the table who needs a refill on coke. Obviously they would go there next. The fact that they went to that table second means they gave that table worse service. I am not saying the server ignore them when they have time to help, or treat them with a different attitude etc. I am simply saying a rational server will prioritize and that is to their benefit and the benefit of the establishment. In fact to do the opposite and spend more time on something that makes less money is the sign of an inexperienced server.

[disneysteve]

How is this different from the type of service you expect?

I don't want a server who is going to try and upsell me at every opportunity. Be friendly, responsive and attentive, take my order and bring me my food. Ask me what I want. Don't try to tell me what I want. Don't answer questions I haven't asked yet. Don't try to steer me toward certain items. I know what I like and dislike and I know how much I'm interested in spending. You as the server know none of those things. When I order the martini you could say, "Do you have a vodka preference?" If, at that point I say, "What are my choices?" then you could give me a list. There is a big difference, and usually a very obvious difference, between a responsive server and a pushy server.

Example: We were at a French bistro place a while ago, a contemporary upscale kind of place. My wife and I reviewed the menu and listened attentively as the waiter recited the specials. Finally it was my wife's turn to order and she ordered the chicken dish. She didn't order it because she was being cheap. She ordered it because she is allergic to seafood, doesn't eat pork, doesn't eat much red meat and happens to enjoy chicken. The server immediately tried to get her to reconsider, pointing out other options (all more expensive). Sorry. It isn't your job to tell the customer what to order. It is your job to service the customer - answer questions if asked and then do as requested to the best of your ability.

As you can tell, I'm not a person who cares much for sales people. I hate walking into a store and having a salesperson approach me and ask if they can help me. Yes, you can help me by leaving me alone. If I have a question or need assistance, be available so that I can find you. Otherwise, let me shop in peace.

You are obviously missing my point. I am not proposing that the server refill the wine and then twiddle their thumbs and ignore the table who needs a refill on coke. Obviously they would go there next. The fact that they went to that table second means they gave that table worse service. I am not saying the server ignore them when they have time to help, or treat them with a different attitude etc. I am simply saying a rational server will prioritize and that is to their benefit and the benefit of the establishment. In fact to do the opposite and spend more time on something that makes less money is the sign of an inexperienced server.

I see your point there. Obviously you need to somehow prioritize your time. You can't be at every table at every moment. What shouldn't happen, and often does, is seeing our server make 3 trips to nearby tables bringing out rounds of drinks without once coming by to check on us or refill my water glass. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if you dropped off a pitcher of water at the start of the meal so that you didn't have to bother coming back but few restaurants go that route. I suppose they see it as cheap but if you aren't doing the service needed, that would be a good compromise in my opinion.

[shanecurran]

As a server you have to read your audience, some people would be offended if you did not point out house specialties etc. You do not prefer this type of service and I am sure you would make that obvious from the beginning. I am giving you examples of how servers are salespeople. This is like saying when I go in to buy a car I am not persuaded by the salesman-I know what I want to buy and they will not tell me otherwise. That is fine, but it doesn't mean that the person is not a salesperson. It sounds like you would prefer an experience where you could push a button to request your meal, drink, dessert etc. and have it delivered to the table silently when it is ready. This is not why most people go out to eat. They go for the experience as well as the food and libations.

I don't work in the service industry anymore, but having done so I appreciate the job that they do, and tip accordingly. I do not have a problem with our system of tipping. Servers make their money based on sales and rely on receiving a given percentage. Hourly wages are next to nothing. I made less than $3 per hour at one restaurant and there were times when my paycheck at the end of a full time work week was less than $5 after taxes and credit card fees had been taken into account. Serving and bartending are not easy jobs, they are high stress and fast paced work environments. People who complain about tipping never had to work in the industry and are unable to understand the value of the service they provide. You will never hear someone complain about our tipping system who had to rely on an industry job to survive.

[shanecurran]

Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if you dropped off a pitcher of water at the start of the meal so that you didn't have to bother coming back but few restaurants go that route. I suppose they see it as cheap but if you aren't doing the service needed, that would be a good compromise in my opinion.

I agree with you about the pitchers. I worked in an upscale casual establishment (menu changed daily, tablecloths, reset silverware, 6 different types of wine glasses. At lunch time the atmosphere was more casual. We had a group of regulars who would come in often. They always took care of me but they were very demanding and could put you in the weeds with refills of iced tea (I am talking about 4 or 5 refills in a matter of 30 minutes because they liked to pop in and pop out). I tried to be as attentive as possible but sometimes you had too many tables to keep up. I always wanted to bring a pitcher of iced tea to the table but I knew the owner would not allow it. One day they actually asked me if I could bring a pitcher to the table. I asked the owner, who after some debate agreed to let me bring a pitcher to the table since they had requested it (but said that it would be a one time occurrence).

I ran into this problem at another restaurant where the patrons did not want me to do a formal presentation of their wine and preferred to pour it themselves. The owner also required that we decant all red bottles of wine. They did not want their wine decanted (and with good reason, because it was a Pinot Noir). I gave the customer what they wanted, filled only one glass and left the bottle on the table. The owner was irate. I tried to plead my case to no avail. The next time they came in, I notified the owner and suggested that she present the wine to the table. She refused saying that she was too busy.

I think that the customer should get what they want even if it is not in line with the establishments idea of service or procedure (which is different at every restaurant and every owner thinks their way is correct).

[disneysteve]

I am giving you examples of how servers are salespeople. This is like saying when I go in to buy a car I am not persuaded by the salesman-I know what I want to buy and they will not tell me otherwise. That is fine, but it doesn't mean that the person is not a salesperson.

Point taken. I should say I don't look to a restaurant server to be a salesperson but rather a service person. Other patrons may prefer the salesperson approach.

It sounds like you would prefer an experience where you could push a button to request your meal, drink, dessert etc. and have it delivered to the table silently when it is ready.

Not at all. A great server can make or break a dining experience. We've had many wonderful servers and some that were not so hot. There is a restaurant we go to when we are in Florida and one waitress (Darleen) remembers us each time we come even if it has been 2 years since our last visit. Part of the reason we look forward to eating there is just to catch up with her. One of our favorite places locally is a wonderful family-owned northern Italian spot where the waiters will fillet your fresh fish tableside. I enjoy the show as much as I enjoy the freshly grilled branzino or orata. And we always end the meal sharing a round of homemade limoncello with our dining party and the waiter. As I said, a friendly, responsive and attentive waiter is worth every penny of his tip.

I do not have a problem with our system of tipping.

Here's where we disagree.

Hourly wages are next to nothing.

And here is at least part of the problem. Servers should be paid a fair wage by their employer. I don't know the history but I've always wondered how the current system developed. Why don't restaurants have to at least pay minimum wage? And a restaurant where the typical check is $50 and up ought to be paying well above minimum wage.

A tip should be a thank you for good service. That just isn't the case in this country. Diners are expected to leave a 15-20% tip no matter what. The money loses its significance at that point. In so many restaurants today, if you have at least 6 in your party, they automatically add an 18% tip so the customers don't even get a say in the matter (unless they want to give more than that). On more than one unfortunate occasion, I've had to speak to a manager and downgrade that automatic tip because it simply wasn't earned or deserved. That shouldn't happen.

I always wanted to bring a pitcher of iced tea to the table but I knew the owner would not allow it.

I understand that owners want to maintain a certain atmosphere and serving pitchers at an upscale place may not really fit the atmosphere but you can't have it both ways. Either you need the staffing level to keep the glasses filled promptly or you need to serve pitchers on request. They don't have to be the cheap plastic pitchers. Go get pretty crystal ones if you prefer so that they at least match the decor but do what is needed to take care of the customers.

[dfeucht]

This is a fascinating discussion. I tend to be more like DS and share a lot of the frustrations he has shared here, but Shane I appreciate your point of view and you sharing your experiences honestly.

As you talk about your experience I can see a lot of you in different servers I have had - some of those servers good and some bad - it really is about presentation.

Back to the original topic of this thread and the relation of that to servers, one thing I notice is the reaction of some servers after the drink order. Clearly that is the indicator Shane uses as well. When I don't order a beer/drink I can't tell you how irritating it is if the server has a noticeable demeanor change. Like the server "knows" that we must be "cheapskates", I "know" this server is going to pay a little less attention to me. It makes for a little less positive dining expereince.