Help! Beyond saver/spender fight

[jIM_Ohio]

EE, I know that I'm going against the "grain" of the thread, but I really want to encourage you to try to work this out with your wife. I understand that you feel "cheated" and I really do understand your side of the story. I have a husband who has not always upfront and honest with me with how he spent his money, and I do know how much it hurts. However, I know that people can and do change, and even though you're in a world of hurt, I hope that you can find someone to help you and your wife work through this.

What she said.
Good answer.

[SacredFaerie]

What suze ormon recomends does not help OP get out of his jam (OP is already married).

I have been there as recent as September of 2008, less than 6 months ago. In my case wife had around 11k of cc debt she had maintained by sending cc's in my name to her mother's house. I liquidated the cash from an EF to pay them off (we are still rebuilding the EF now).

Here is what I would do: forget his/hers/ours. There is his and hers only. If she is tapping joint accounts, you need to stop the root cause.

Put all money for bills into account in your name
Give her a monthly allowance. If she wants more, she needs to earn it.
Go to freecreditreport.com and get a free credit report in minutes for you and wife- that should tell you what her total debt is.

Once you see scope of the numbers problem, I might suggest posting a budget here.

YES! If all you can do is enable her a trial separation might be an idea. It would show you both something a little different.

[maat55]

My wife is pretty much the same way, so I completely took over the finances. I setup a budget and said this is it, agree or leave. She did not like it, but got used to it OK.

When one person chooses to act like a child, they should expect to be treated as such. I pay all the bills and we agree on how to spend the extra. I've been married 27 years and was willing to end the marriage as apposed to living with a financial idiot.

Many here do not agree with me, but they can stay on the Titanic by themselves. I did what I had to do and do not appologize for it.

[disneysteve]

With the wisdom of Solomon, I'll say that I think both Jim and maat are right. It really depends on the situation and the individuals involved. Yes, people "can" change if they want to and are willing to do what is necessary. Some people, however, "won't" change (which is not the same as "can't" change).

OP, you need to determine if your spouse is a "won't" change person. That probably means sitting down with open books and saying that this is where things stand, here are the problems as you see them and here is what you think ought to happen to correct them. Ask her thoughts. Does she agree with your assessment of the problem? Does she agree that her spending habits are a problem? Is it something that she seriously wants to address and correct? If it is, then work together to fix it. If she denies that there is a problem and has no desire or intention to change the way she has been doing things, you then need to decide if you want to go forward in the relationship. Make it very clear to her that her behavior is threatening your marriage and lack of willingness to change may result in it ending. If she is still unwilling to change, do what you feel you need to do.

[umarider]

How is her mental/emotional health? Only asking because I have a family member who is bi-polar. Much as they would like to get a grip on their finances, it seems that during emotional swings, the money just goes through their hands like water. And during the really giddy "up" times, credit are obligations are made/obtained/used, because they are "sure" that more money will be coming in soon, etc. In those situations, it is healthier to take away the temptation and put the person on an allowance.

[Seeker]

With the wisdom of Solomon, I'll say that I think both Jim and maat are right. It really depends on the situation and the individuals involved. Yes, people "can" change if they want to and are willing to do what is necessary. Some people, however, "won't" change (which is not the same as "can't" change).

OP, you need to determine if your spouse is a "won't" change person. That probably means sitting down with open books and saying that this is where things stand, here are the problems as you see them and here is what you think ought to happen to correct them. Ask her thoughts. Does she agree with your assessment of the problem? Does she agree that her spending habits are a problem? Is it something that she seriously wants to address and correct? If it is, then work together to fix it. If she denies that there is a problem and has no desire or intention to change the way she has been doing things, you then need to decide if you want to go forward in the relationship. Make it very clear to her that her behavior is threatening your marriage and lack of willingness to change may result in it ending. If she is still unwilling to change, do what you feel you need to do.

I agree 100% with DS here.... only you two can figure out what the future will be and if she cannot or will not come to terms with the reality, then you need to come to terms with what you want to do.

Spending life frustrated or angry with your partner is absolutely no way to live.

[snafu]

Sorry this is going to sound horrid. Your wife is a 49 y/o woman behaving like an immature teenager rejecting financial responsibilities. She has been lying to herself and successful with this behavior. I can't help but wonder if she is has an emotional hole in her heart that she is trying to heal with shopping.

Only you can decide the behavior you are willing to accept. There is no reason to expect her to change her behavior. DW has been lying to you by sending bills to another address.

[cschin4]

I really think you should look into marriage counseling. As should your wife look into why she spends so much in the first place. What does she say about it? Does she know that she is overspending and if she does, why does she continue to do so?
I think you can save your marriage if you can both work together. But, you will both have to work hard. Her to change her spending habits and you to resolve your anger and resentment.
Often spending can just be a bad habit. When I was younger, we used to just go to the mall for "something to do". Well, whenever and where ever you expose yourself to merchandise, you are going to shop and buy. So, just changing my spending habits wasn't enough. In order to really change, you have to change your whole mindset about money. Otherwise, not spending becomes just like a diet you can't wait to break. But, if you change your way of thinking about finances, it really changes your desire to shop, spend, buy.
Anyway, my point is does she shop out of boredom? Does she hang around friends who are big spenders? Was she raised by parents in CC debt, etc?
And, separating your finances and burying your head in the sand while you know that she is not going to balance the checkbook isn't productive or helpful to either of you. And, whether cards are in only her name or not doesn't mean that you are not responsible for her debt. If she is running up cc's, as a married couple, you will be held responsible to pay any debt she owes. (it may be different depending on what state you live in) but here, marital debt is owed by both people.
Anyway, what does she say? Does she want to change? Does she realize she is hurting herself and your marriage?

[Like2Plan]

I took back my share of the money from the account, and I’ve been avoiding a confrontation, but I’m resentful, angry, and don’t know what to do. Help!

It sounds like you have already taken about all the steps you can in reducing your exposure as much as possible short of legal action.

The way you manage your money now is going to dictate what your life is like in the future especially into retirement. Both lifestyle and the length of time you have to work.

This is where I have trouble understanding his and hers money. What happens when the couple is retired and one is ladden with CC debt, etc and has little saved and the other has a robust retirement account? When they go out to eat, does one order filet mignon and the other order hot water and catsup? Or, does the responsible partner have to work longer (or forever) to build up the retirement account to cover expenses for both?

You are going to have to look in your crystal ball and decide what you want for your future. Then, you need to share your vision with your DW. If you two don't have a meeting of the minds, then you are going to have to decide if you can go on business as usual.....

[maat55]

Financial dictatorships probably don't work out to well on the personal side. Sooner or later the peasents revolt.

It's not an dictatorship if the dictator is willing to set at the table and work together. Spending irresponsibly behind the others back is a severe breach of trust.

When talk will not work, action has to take place. IMO.

[SacredFaerie]

Everyone mentioned something key. Staying with your wife (if that's what you want) will NOT work unless you find out why she spends like she has a money tree. Is it a childhood issue, depression, bi-polar what? Can't fix the issue without knowing the root cause.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

We've had the argument before, that some people will take dictatorships like Maats, and others would flip out (me and jim's wife). But that doesn't mean people can't change. They can but they have to choose to.

It's like saying an alcoholic can't recover, they can but they need to go to AA and choose to stop, or they can drink themselves to death. You can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

But you can choose if you will go along with it or not.

[maat55]

We've had the argument before, that some people will take dictatorships like Maats, and others would flip out (me and jim's wife). But that doesn't mean people can't change. They can but they have to choose to.

It's like saying an alcoholic can't recover, they can but they need to go to AA and choose to stop, or they can drink themselves to death. You can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

But you can choose if you will go along with it or not.

I really resent being called a dictator LAL. My wife is always welcome to contribute to the process and just chooses not to. I can also say that we are just as happily married today as we were before I took over the finances.

As you have stated, I made the choice to not go along, DW is free to do the same. She is content with our situation. I know what she wants in life and am going to find a way for her to have it, the responsible way.

[PrincessPerky]

Pick your battles.

Find a way to deal in a not best manner (you can't have the best way if she isn't on board) and then deal.

Find a counselor to help you deal with her not being the fiscally responsible woman you want .

Then if she is willing find her a counselor to help her with whatever she wants help with. if one day it leads to her being financially responsible great, if not, it just might help her with bigger issues. (yes there may be bigger issues)

Maat, I assume you have talked with your wife, and you TWO have come up with the best solution to your situation being you deal with the finances, and set the limits. It is not a dictatorship if you were given the control.

Living in America we ALL aught to take note of that before we go giving the govt any more power.

back on topic, sorry if you haven't got the perfect spouse....being a non perfect person myself I find it rather frustrating to be lousy at things, and I resent that you can do it better. But if I ever do give up, I am rather good at letting others do their thing, helps if I can find something I am good at to have be my thing.

[EEinNJ]

Thanks all for the many thoughtful responses. This is not an "I want a divorce" fight at this stage, though it's come close before. Some of you have guessed correctly the wife has had underlying emotional issues, depression, and while not bi-polar, has a temperment that borders that. She has a reputation with her family of being overly generous and money "goes through her hands like water" She does not shop for recreation, and is often cost-conscious, though. It's the 10-20-100 dollar purchases that add up to more than she makes. Not thinking ahead is another- a trip to Florida to visit her sister, Christmas shopping- then there's no money to pay her school loan. I know lots of people live this way, thinking as long as there's money in an account or coming in, it's no big deal. Same with the checkbook- it's just a few hundred dollars, so what if it's not balanced? This is why I overlooked it- it wasn't worth the fight. But like Like2Plan said, the long term implications for financial health as a couple are not good, and ironically, me having money then becomes a source of conflict. There are more important things in life, though, and managing money is largely learned behavior.