Self-defense

[Broken Arrow]

I'm not saying don't own a gun if you have kids (I do). But I am saying that having a loaded weapon within unsupervised access to a child is flat out irresponsible and indefensible. A ten year old does not possess the judgement to be 100% trusted at all times, unsupervised (i.e. loaded in the bedside table where he/she can get to it during the day unsupervised) around a loaded weapon, I don't care how many kiddie NRA classes they have been to, or how early in infancy they began hearing about gun safety. I know a parent who claims he keeps his gun loaded but secures it evey morning.....I guess that is a better than nothing, but I have to question how many times he forgets to secure his weapon while in a rush for work. It only takes one sequence of events to make a bad day.

My alarm, dog, locks, and exterior lights are my first line of defense; if someone makes it past that, then I will have had plenty of heads up to take the 30 seconds it takes to remove the child trigger lock from my Glock. That was my point with my comment about having another line of self-defense first.

Oh! Well, I misunderstood your original statement then. I thought you meant to say that people who have kids shouldn't have guns at all.

I agree with your statement here. Buried in previous replies, I too have emphasized that I do not advise people having a loaded gun in the house.

I suppose we could nit-pick on what we consider is the definition of "trained" but in the end, we're all human beings, and accidents do happen. And as you say, that's all the reason why it's so important to realize that firearm safety is the top priority, and to also never rely on firearms exclusively for your protection.

Yeah, I believe that self-defense should be approached holistically, as a multi-layered approach. Firearms is only one of many factors to consider, and in my mind, it's not even the most important ones.

[zooracer]

There are a million arguments on both sides of this debate and in my opinion, this is a very personal decision.


As a law enforcement guy, I would just offer to you the following:

-If you are getting a gun, get the training first. ...and shooting at a target in a controlled environment is one hell of a lot different than waking up disoriented on the middle of the night, locating your weapon, and using it as deadly force.

-Get something easy to use and reliable (I like Glocks, but that's just me), and be sure everyone in your home knows what it is and how to use it (for safety purposes).

-If you have kids, find another means of self defense. Not sure about the public, but on the federal side we are actually required by agency policy to lock our weapons up at home. The "pistol under the pillow" crap in hollywood is a good way to get hurt.

-To those who think trained individuals do not have accidental/negligent discharges, you are wrong. Google the video of the DEA agent who shot himself during a school presentation. There are numerous others. Familiarity breeds laziness sometimes.

-Motion detectors, double locking doors, and a dog will prevent/deter 99% of potential problems.



As far as a concealed permit goes, if that is your desire, so be it. But you better understand the rules change when you leave your home and if you pull your gun for anthing other than self-defense, you are openning yourself up to a boatlaod of problems.

Oh geez, I remember that vid of the DEA guy giving a presentation with some other officers to some school children.
He broke two of the four rules I had mentioned above.

He had his finger on the trigger when his sights were not on the target AND he was pointing the gun at something he WAS NOT willing to destroy

Just because you are law enforcement certainly does not mean you know anything about how to handle a firearm.
Just look at the hit percentage of LEO's involved in shootouts. It is horrible!

I remember a cop I worked with who had pulled his shotgun out of the upright carrier in his car for a riot situation. When all was cleared up and he returned to his car, he put the shotgun back into it's carrier loaded. For some unknown reason, he decided to pull the trigger to CLEAR THE CHAMBER!
Blew the lights off the roof.

Also, just because you have kids does not mean you cannot own a firearm for defense.
Two of my best friends, none of which were/are LEO's, have little girls AND have handguns locked away in their bedrooms. Combination safes.
The girls have all been introduced to the guns, know what they are, know not to touch them (they are all under 9 yrs old), etc...

With a little common sense, firearms can be very safe with children.

Also, all this talk about being disoriented when waking up in the middle of the night...

I personally have never had a problem with this. When a noise wakes me up (like my dogs barking), I come to already knowing that I'm sleeping in my bed (where else would I be sleeping ), in my bedroom, in my house...I'm also already aware that it is night time.
If it is something that is alarming to me, then I find myself pretty darn alert as I roll out of my bed and pick up my handgun on the night stand next to me (loaded and ready).

Very little disorientation for me...I dont know about other people...

[GRITSinMS]

I have heard it said that a gun is not a good idea because a criminal can easily overtake you and use it on you. Check with your local police about whether they offer self-defense classes. I just found out my local dept. offers a class once a year, starting in February, that teaches safety and self-defense. At the end, you will be qualified to volunteer with the police department.

We have two dogs in the house that bark when anyone is outside. I think that is a good deterrent. We have quite a few episodes of crime on our street (and it's not even a bad area). I have been meaning to look into security cameras, alarms and/or something. Does anyone have knowledge/advice of those?

[Broken Arrow]

I have heard it said that a gun is not a good idea because a criminal can easily overtake you and use it on you. Check with your local police about whether they offer self-defense classes. I just found out my local dept. offers a class once a year, starting in February, that teaches safety and self-defense. At the end, you will be qualified to volunteer with the police department.

Yes, that is correct. Too many people mistakenly put too much faith into inanimate objects, and that could prove tragic in the end. A gun is just a tool. It won't magically turn you into Chuck Norris, able to fend off the worst of society. A good mindset and some training is much more important.

The program you suggest there is interesting, though I dare venture to say that most departments don't offer such a program. The reason being the usual matter of liability. If something were to happen to a dept-trained citizen, the city could be liable and the program would come into question.

[Snave]

I'm a baseball bat kind-of-guy myself. Keep one under the bed where it is easy to reach. It is little league bat so it is a bit smaller and easier to swing. Fortunately I have never had to use it, but did have to show it when I lived in an apartment. A gal that lived in the apartment next to mine had a boyfriend that couldn't get the hint one night and he was pounding on her door trying to get in and screaming. I opened my door and he asked who the hell I was. I said I was the guy with a baseball bat and who the hell was he.

[jIM_Ohio]

You know, thanks for bringing this subject up.

I am thinking of getting a shotgun not for self-defense per se in the usual sense of what everyone fears here. . .but rather if there becomes a chance of civil unrest due to a Hurricane, nuclear attack, energy prices/food shortages, etc. Then I feel a gun is a necessity.

I generally agree with DisneySteve. . .in the chance of an armed burglarly. . .reaching the gun may not happen in time and the advantage IMO is only slight (the intruder has the element of surprise and probably initiative on his side), if there is any advantage at all.

Besides, without my contacts at night, I am as blind as a bat.

However, when there is civil unrest in which the social order we have in America can degrade within a matter of 2 days IMO. . .you could have roving thugs and gangs in your streets out to take what is yours or hurt your family.

So. . .I just plan to keep the shotgun and shells in a locked armory.

I have read that a shotgun is the recommended ultimate defensive weapon - it doesn't penetrate walls as easy as a highpowered rifle or handgun (and injure someone accidently), can blast in a wide dispersal pattern for DW, and the sound of it cocking is usually enough to get surrender.

Anyway, I have never bought a firearm. . .what's the best way to go about it? Do I buy it and then sign up for a gun safety course or vice-versa?

So how much does the market need to decline before we all need to invest in guns and ammo?

[jIM_Ohio]

This thread is very interesting.

We have no guns and no interest in owning one. We do have an alarm system. My wife is the survivor of a violent crime and the person she testified against has since been released and lives not too far from us.

While some of you here would probably say owning a gun would protect us more, my wife has said she could not stand to have a gun around.

So regardless of my opinions, no guns in our house. I do know from talking with a friend which is a firefighter that our house is 12 minutes from call to fire trucks on scene, so I would assume police could get there somewhat sooner once alarm goes off.

[Johansen8]

I have known a great many people that have used their guns in self defense, and not always by firing them!

Sometimes just "showing a little steel" can make the perp back off (showing is fine, but be ready to back it up!).

During a year long stay in "the bad part" of a major city ... among just my friends and co-workers:

10 home invasions were cut short. (Three by the homeowner yelling "I've got a gun aimed at that door, break in and get shot!").

5 assaults were stopped cold.

3 Convenience store robberies were unsuccessful.

1 murder was unsuccessful (the perp brought a knife to a gun fight!).


If you truly want to defend your home, the experts will tell you to get a shotgun. Any handgun has an effective range of about 35 feet. Beyond that distance, you may not hit your target. With a shotgun and some scatter buck shot, you are going to hit what you are aiming at.

[Broken Arrow]

So how much does the market need to decline before we all need to invest in guns and ammo?

Well, if the indications of the incoming secondary wave of recession sending the Dow spiraling further down turns out to be true....

While some of you here would probably say owning a gun would protect us more, my wife has said she could not stand to have a gun around.

I would not be one of those.... I'm not a tool-orientated person. Well, yes I am, but I'm more of a mindset/training-orientated person. Anyone who is reasonably trained in this field will tell you the same. But when you think about it, this also applies to just about any other field. That isn't to say that tools aren't important, just that training and mindset is much more so.

I have known a great many people that have used their guns in self defense, and not always by firing them!

Sometimes just "showing a little steel" can make the perp back off (showing is fine, but be ready to back it up!).

....

If you truly want to defend your home, the experts will tell you to get a shotgun. Any handgun has an effective range of about 35 feet. Beyond that distance, you may not hit your target. With a shotgun and some scatter buck shot, you are going to hit what you are aiming at.

Respectfully, I have to strongly disagree with this. Showing your weapon without the proper context of life-and-death situation is a felony in my state, and I doubt mine is the only one. The best thing to do is to make sure you are up-to-date with the relevant state laws. Make sure you know precisely when you can and can not pull out your gun. Otherwise, you could end up in jail.

I've pulled my gun on several occasions, in my previous line of work. All of them were justified, and about the only reason I didn't pull the trigger was because, at the last second, they either backed off or ran off. Show of force was never part of the plan. No, I had planned to shoot them, but again, the situation changed at the last second. And that's what most trainers here would tell you anyway, that if you pull your gun, be sure it's a situation you really are justified to do so and that you seriously intend to shoot. Otherwise, don't do it.

I also have somewhat a thing against shotguns, but I've listed them earlier in this thread so I won't regurgitate it. Suffice to say, there's a myth about scatter guns not requiring any precision aiming. Yes, that's a myth. Anyone who has shot clay from even 10 yards out knows that you do have to have a decent aim to hit it.

The thing is, even if you have a perfect shot spread, I've long argued that it isn't necessarily a good thing. One of the cardinal rules of firearm safety is to know what you're going to hit. If you're in an environment where there's a lot of people or things around that you don't want to damage, you may not always be able to account for where your pellets are going to scatter to.

Plus, I wonder if people realize how much felt recoil is in a shotgun? And yeah, call me a wimp, but it's also heavy and unwieldy. Not my idea of an ideal CQC tool.

But don't get me wrong. They are a lot of wizards out there that can work magic with the shotgun, so really, it goes back to my earlier point about skill trumping tools.

[GREENBACK]

I guess I somehow missed this whole discussion when it started. The different viewpoints and opionions are very interesting.

As one who has spent my entire career in law enforcement I've seen quite a few scenarios where armed citizens have used firearms to defend themselves. I've also observed people that own a gun that aren't prepared for what may be a life or death situation

Proficient use of a firearm at a firing range is quite different than being in a really high stress situation where you may have to decide in a split second to shoot someone or not. People react quite differently to stressful situations(even cops).

Over the course of my career I have had thousands of hours of training with many different types of weapons. This is continuous training month after month and year after year. This training is intended to simulate real life scenarios. The idea is that it gets ingrained into your psyche so that you respond instinctively to what you have learned in your training.

I know from experience that it works. I also know that given all the hours of training from professionals ; in a real life and death situation you experience things physically that no scenario prepares you for. Your heart rate soars, you develop tunnel vision, Your fine motor skills diminish. This is when you have to react instinctively.

I wholeheartedly believe that people should be allowed to use firearms to protect themselves. Calling 911 is great but violent crimes often occur in seconds and when law enforcement shows up it's usually Going to be after the crime has occured.


I don't discount the effectiveness of dogs, pepper spray, locks, etc.. They are effective and so is situational awareness whereby you avoid putting yourself in a situation where force may be needed.

With all that said, Hopefully I've added something to this discussion. The point I wanted to make is simply that if you choose a firearm to protect yourself make sure you do much more than take a basic course. If you have a firearm in your home for self defense it should not be thought of a something you'll use as merely a deterant. The mindset to use deadly force should be established well before It's needed.

[Snave]

I'm more of a baseball bat guy. I keep one under my bed. It is a little-league bat and is 29" and a little easier to swing if need be. Never had to use it, but did have to have it out one time. When I lived in an apartment building downtown, a pissed-offed boyfriend was pounding on his girlfriends door in the middle of the night and screaming for her to let him in. I opened my door and he asked who the hell I was. I opened it a little more so he could see the bat and told him I was the guy with the baseball bat.

[Broken Arrow]

Yes, well said Greenback.

Real life is indeed very different from the range, and basic courses aren't enough to prepare one for such a situation. That's why simply having a firearm will not magically protect the owner, just as simply having a car (and even taking basic Driver's Ed) does not magically make one an expert driver.

It's something I've mentioned earlier here and elsewhere. While I am a staunch supporter of our 2nd amendment rights, people really need to know what they're getting into before they actually commit the use of deadly force in self defense. That and adequate training is needed to back it up. Otherwise, it could have disastrous unintended consequences.

[kork13]

I'm more of a baseball bat guy. I keep one under my bed. It is a little-league bat and is 29" and a little easier to swing if need be. Never had to use it, but did have to have it out one time. When I lived in an apartment building downtown, a pissed-offed boyfriend was pounding on his girlfriends door in the middle of the night and screaming for her to let him in. I opened my door and he asked who the hell I was. I opened it a little more so he could see the bat and told him I was the guy with the baseball bat.

HAHA That's great. I'm probably closer to that as well. I will say that I'm trained, competant, and confident with handguns, rifles, and shotguns. However, I just don't really want to own one (at least not right now). In a situation where someone is in my home, I'd be more comfortable defending myself and others with my own two hands rather than a firearm that could more easily cause collateral damage/injury.

So here's a chance to accuse me of being a bit medieval.... I don't have a baseball bat (...yet...), but I do have multiple other weapons. Spread throughout my apartment, I have two 1ft long daggers, a 3ft short sword, and two 4ft training swords (this count is building, I collect swords/blade weapons). They don't have the mass/force of a baseball bat or the range of a firearm, but I'm competant in their use for defending myself and making veritable threats if necessary. In a close-quarters scenario, I trust those more than a gun in almost any case. And I think that's what's most important--that you are comfortable and competant in defending yourself and others, by whatever means you may prefer.

[Broken Arrow]

Hehe, I'm a bit of a knife person as well.

However, I just want to point out that knives are also legally the same level as guns. It's viewed as a deadly weapon. So, I would be sure to read up on whatever laws available surrounding that.

Psychologically, knives are also more difficult to handle. With a gun, most people at least have the luxury of distance and getting it over with fairly quickly. With a knife, you have get up close, you have to cut and watch people bleed. Worse yet, most are not mentally prepared to Be Cut in the off chance of being over-powered and them using your own weapon against you.

So, believe it or not, knives actually require much more training than even guns, because the use of it guarantees that you have to be within arm's reach of your assailant(s).

Just throwing it out there....

[GREENBACK]

Kork
I won't neccesarily accuse you of being"medieval" but when Ancient armies discovered projectile weapons, particularly those employing gunpowder, you can guess which side gained a decided advantage.

I think it was stated several posts ago"don't bring a knife to a gunfight". The only thing worse to bring to a gunfight is a stick(baseball bat, club,etc.). If a knife or sword or whatever bladed instrument was most effective the police and the military would be using them instead of the firearms they trust as their primary weapons.

If you're comfortable with a knife then go with it but don't take on someone with a gun unless you're a ninja. Then again, they were defeated by guns too.