How does raising the income tax on the wealthy help the middle class?

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

And let's not forget how much the truly poor spend on booze, lottery and cigarettes. Lottery is basically a poor tax.

Once they legalize marijuana the poor may actually have higher effective tax burdens than the rich.

Is your point that the poor should have no balm or luxuries until they have paid some income tax? Where do you draw the line? No tea in their water, no cheese on their cracker, no heat in their bath water?

This is just an insignificant personal testimony, but when I was poor I did not spend one cent on booze, lottery, cigarettes, or marijuana. I would have been hard pressed to come up with federal income tax, nonetheless.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Is your point that the poor should have no balm or luxuries until they have paid some income tax? Where do you draw the line? No tea in their water, no cheese on their cracker, no heat in their bath water?

This is just an insignificant personal testimony, but when I was poor I did not spend one cent on booze, lottery, cigarettes, or marijuana. I would have been hard pressed to come up with federal income tax, nonetheless.

Actually my point was that even poor people paid taxes, and through sin taxes in many cases paid quite a bit. Of course this is their own fault.

Never said it was all poor, but even a casual glance at a 7-11 in a poor neighborhood will show you that the poor throw a lot of money away on this stuff.

It's just the truth, no matter how much you wish to deny it.

[hamchan]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

This article may shed light upon that, WTF. But, to add to Petunia's point, there are many poor people who don't spend money on these things. I never did either. I won't say I never used drugs or alcohol, but I can say I never paid for them.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann...b_6506936.html

This article may shed light upon that, WTF. But, to add to Petunia's point, there are many poor people who don't spend money on these things. I never did either. I won't say I never used drugs or alcohol, but I can say I never paid for them.

My point still stands, the poor throw away tons of money on this stuff.

[disneysteve]

there are many poor people who don't spend money on these things.

Of course. I don't think anyone is suggesting that all poor people play the lottery, smoke, drink, and do drugs. However, the reality is that those vices are used by the poor disproportionately. For example, nationwide, the smoking rate is about 18%, but among the poor, it is about 28%.

There have been many studies on lottery purchase demographics. One example:
"A recent review of demographic studies commissioned by the South Carolina Education Lottery showed... people in households earning under $40,000 accounted for 28% of the state’s population but made up 54% percent of frequent players"

Another study showed "the most impoverished counties in North Carolina spend the most money on the state lottery"

[hamchan]

I don't disagree with that, which is why I posted the article I did. Did you read it? It sheds a lot of light on why addiction disproportionately affects the poor.

I do think statements like that are inherently problematic though, because they lead to people painting all poor people with the same broad brush. As someone who spent about a decade of my life trying to get by on a very small income, one can become very sensitive to others making assumptions about you based on your socio-economic status. It happens all the time. It's a degrading and isolating experience, which ironically can lead to being predisposed to addiction.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I don't disagree with that, which is why I posted the article I did. Did you read it? It sheds a lot of light on why addiction disproportionately affects the poor.

I do think statements like that are inherently problematic though, because they lead to people painting all poor people with the same broad brush. As someone who spent about a decade of my life trying to get by on a very small income, one can become very sensitive to others making assumptions about you based on your socio-economic status. It happens all the time. It's a degrading and isolating experience, which ironically can lead to being predisposed to addiction.

Welp be that as it may, nobody forced them to buy this stuff. I understand that we all have our vices, but a little personal responsibility would go a long way in this country.

[hamchan]

Welp be that as it may, nobody forced them to buy this stuff. I understand that we all have our vices, but a little personal responsibility would go a long way in this country.

As long as people like you view addiction as nothing more than a personal moral failing, it will continue to be a problem. Whereas when we recognize what actually causes addiction to flourish, and address those issues within society, it will be less of a problem. I guess it all depends on whether you actually want better for society, or if you'd rather feel morally superior.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

As long as people like you view addiction as nothing more than a personal moral failing, it will continue to be a problem. Whereas when we recognize what actually causes addiction to flourish, and address those issues within society, it will be less of a problem. I guess it all depends on whether you actually want better for society, or if you'd rather feel morally superior.

No I don't want to feel morally superior. I struggle with my own addictions. But I also take responsibility for them. And I've been the other path of blaming the world for my own problems. I vastly prefer the former.

[bigdaddybus]

No I don't want to feel morally superior. I struggle with my own addictions. But I also take responsibility for them. And I've been the other path of blaming the world for my own problems. I vastly prefer the former.

Well said

[disneysteve]

As long as people like you view addiction as nothing more than a personal moral failing, it will continue to be a problem.

I don't think that article provides any magical solution to addiction problems. Some of what it says is interesting, but addiction isn't that straightforward. There are endless examples of people raised in identical circumstances and one becomes an addict and the other doesn't, so the "rats in a cage vs rats in a park" experiment does nothing to address that.

My brother and I were raised by loving parents in a stable home in a solidly middle class family and neighborhood. We went to the same schools, the same summer camp, went on the same vacations, etc. We each had plenty of friends and, in fact, shared many of the same friends from the neighborhood. Fast forward to today. I'm 50, happily married, good job, nice home, yada, yada. He died in 1987 after overdosing on pills after struggling with drug addiction for about 6 years before his death. He wasn't in a "cage" anymore than I was in a "park" during those years.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic. The point about the lottery and cigarettes and booze was that the poor DO pay plenty in taxes, even if they owe no income tax. Here in NJ, the state tax on cigarettes is $2.70/pack. Add another $1.01 for the federal tax. So a 2-pack-per-day smoker is paying $2,700 each year in taxes from cigarettes alone. If that same person also drinks a 6-pack every night and buys $5 in lottery tickets daily, they definitely aren't just "living off of the government" as some would suggest. They're actually paying thousands in taxes in addition to sales tax, gas tax, utility taxes, etc.

[hamchan]

Yes, human beings are much more complex than a highly controlled experiment on rats. But my point is that we are still animals, and basic biological impulses still apply. We might like to pretend that they don't but that is not reality.

I agree that in general poor people pay plenty of taxes.

[hamchan]

No I don't want to feel morally superior. I struggle with my own addictions. But I also take responsibility for them. And I've been the other path of blaming the world for my own problems. I vastly prefer the former.

Recognizing the base cause of your addiction and working towards fixing those issues will have a much greater effect than simply chalking it up to willpower alone. Statistically speaking, anyways. Yes, ultimately the individual is responsible for making an effort on their own behalf, but there are many things we could be doing as a society to stack the odds in their favor, rather than against them.

Painting all poor people with the same broad brush only succeeds in perpetuating harmful stereotypes, which over time hurts everyone.

[corn18]

I have not one lick of empathy for someone who "pays taxes" by buying cigarettes, liquor or lottery tickets.

[disneysteve]

Yes, ultimately the individual is responsible for making an effort on their own behalf, but there are many things we could be doing as a society to stack the odds in their favor, rather than against them.

Very true. As I've said many times, I work in the poorest city in America (depending on which survey you go by). One thing that is horrendous in this country is mental health care. Mental health issues are a whole other layer of problems that feed into poverty, crime, and addiction (which also isn't mentioned in that article). So many poor people could become productive members of society if they had easy access to good psychiatric care but that just doesn't exist. We as a nation don't make treating mental health problems a priority. We spend billions on largely self-induced diseases like type 2 diabetes and heart disease but relatively little on disabling conditions like schizophrenia.