Starving Artist-- Student Loan Debt

**bjl584** · 06-01-2012, 07:59 AM

$35 a month for 25 years then the loan is forgiven? So, you would only pay back $10,500 on $80,000 in SL debt?

I've never heard of that before, so I can't really comment on it.

But, $80,000 of SL debt for a job that pays $11 an hour seems like a bad deal. You can make $11 an hour without even going to college. Assuming that this loan forgiveness plan won't workout for you, then you need to raise your income. Find a different job, find two jobs, and cut your expenses drastically.

**auron** · 06-01-2012, 09:09 AM

Sounds like you don't have much choice in the matter. I doubt that IBR could be re-written in such a way that the terms of your SL would be materially affected retroactively. It's a contract and generally changes to their structure will be from the time of adoption going forward.

Just my 2 cents.

**green_goblin12** · 06-01-2012, 09:22 AM

Ouch! I feel for you. I'd say go with the IBR. I'm sure there will be a bailout eventually. I say that slightly tongue-in-cheek.

I've known a few artist friends who finally, after much consideration (but mostly debt), resigned to the fact that they might have to get into some other line of work. Their art became a hobby.

The teaching thing sounds like a good idea, although your experience sounded terrible. Is there some sort of other position in the school system you could possibly hold?

I really wish colleges would educate students about student loan debt, realistic expectations of jobs/salary, and especially counsel those in fine arts and other programs with low average salaries post-college.

Also, I know next-to-nothing about child support, but can't this be based on income? If he's only making as much as you, that $700 is quite a chunk? Again, a tough situation.

The bright spot--your boyfriend becoming an engineer. A well respected and typically higher paying field.

**BMEPhDinCO** · 06-01-2012, 10:19 AM

You should find other side jobs. With a degree like yours, you can do contractual work for graphic design for much more than that (for example, my college has a posting for someone at $15 an hour to help with a website - sure it's only a 40-50 hour job, but that's still 50% more than you make now).

You should also start thinking about "quick art" and by that, I mean doing work that doesn't take 1-2 years to complete. You need to be going to at least 1 show a year. If you sell one painting at $750-$900, you get 1 month of loan money back. If you sell 3 paintings that took less time to do at $600-700, you get 2+ loan payments back.

Finally, with a low income, your BF should go back to court to reassess child support. Is he helping part time? How old is the child? What is their relationship? Although it's not really your business, if you are sharing finances, it becomes an issue for you too.

Another thing, look into doing summer rec classes - they don't pay too much but they pay something.

I would also ask more about IBR - find out all the details and realize that in x years, you will have a giant amount of money to pay taxes on, can you afford it?

I really do feel for you, but $80k isn't THAT large of an amount if y'all are bringing in ~$40k per year and if you do some of the above and look for another job, you can do it!

**LivingAlmostLarge** · 06-01-2012, 02:36 PM

Can your student loans be forgiven? - education debt – MSN Money

Is this the forgiveness program? Sounds real.

**greenskeeper** · 06-01-2012, 03:45 PM

I have no sympathy for people who DECIDE to take out loans (or any other debt for that matter) and then can't make the payments.

Sorry.

I took loans to graduate college and paid them off within 5 years of graduation.

To do this, I drove my paid for car from when I was 16, cut my expenses, and worked a 2nd job.

I also got married and bought a house before paying off the student loans, so it can be done.

Finally the loan won't be "forgiven" completely. SOMEBODY will pay for it (maybe not you) but in the end it will most likely be the american taxpayer through more taxes, or inflation from more money printing.

**nicolewhi** · 06-01-2012, 07:19 PM

some more thoughts

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful comments.

I am looking for a higher paying graphics job at a nonprofit organization.

Not looking for sympathy though. I was very stupid to take out loans for a private school MFA. However, I thought I could get a high-paying faculty job at the university post-grad. Unfortunately, I didn't really understand the politics, social connections, etc. that often play a role in who gets these positions, especially at an ivy league school. My own family is working class. Multiple scholarships combined with the accolades from professionals I trusted made me believe that I had a future in academia and in the art world. Also, I thought that adjunct professors made a living wage. I was wrong.

When I applied to the loans for grad school, the bank would have allowed me to borrow nearly twice what I actually did. I thought that financial institutions wouldn't back loans they didn't think I could pay and that they must be optimistic about my future earning potential, which fueled my own optimism. Again, very very stupid.

I still believe that I could one day teach full time at a respected university, once I have a few solo shows under my belt and am older and wiser. However, do I really want to perpetuate a myth that preys on ignorance and naivete? I would rather be a free agent, working as a graphic artist to support myself by day while working on my own art by night. Ironically, my university education taught me almost nothing about graphic design and imaging software/web work. Thanks to the internet, I have been able to teach myself enough information to get my current job (though it pays terribly, the skills the job requires--complete mastery of CS4, color and film work, extensive knowledge of commercial printing--are not minor. Such work takes practice and technical know-how.)

I don't like the idea of discharging my debt to the American taxpayer/government printing more money. However, I am forced to make a decision. Either I take advantage of forgiveness programs already written into law, thus helping myself considerably but also perhaps contributing to an unsustainable, unfair system that exploits taxpayers OR I don't take advantage of the program and become one of the sad taxpayers who is exploited by others who don't have any qualms about not doing such a thing. It sucks both ways. It's really a prisoner's dilemma. I think it is right to hold one's self accountable, even to hold oneself more accountable than the banks, government, university trustees, and loan companies hold themselves. But it's hard. My boyfriend goes to class during the day and works nights while I work days and take care of his little girl in the evening. I can't get another job; I have to be able to earn extra money in a way that can be done at home. He has to pay so much child support because the little girl's mom refuses to get a job, fabricates child care expenses, and jumps from state to state. And she's on food stamps, section 8, medicare, and getting a graduate counseling degree at a for-profit institution. This student loan problem is a disease that is spreading, affecting us all. Where do we realistically draw the line when it comes to personal responsibility and accountability when the personal cost is so very high but the cost to banks and corporations (who routinely lend money that they don't possess through the fractional reserve banking system)is nonexistent?

I don't like the thought of having the government forgive my loans. But where did my loan money actually go? In grad school, I paid tuition in exchange for a tiny, rodent infested studio. I saw faculty a half an hour each week (if that). I had 2 work study jobs. At the end of semesters we had critiques with visiting artists who were famous and well compensated for their "efforts" though students may not have actually seen these critics for more than 5 minutes (yes this is how it works in art school). I personally organized a fundraiser so that my class could have an exhibition in NYC. There is no way that I consumed $70,000 worth of resources in these 2 years.

The interest rate for Stafford loans when I went to grad school (c. 2007) was fixed at 6.8%, which is not exactly low. The money I borrowed did not translate into goods and services. There were no ipods, fancy vacations, or anything like that. I had no car--I walked, biked, or took public transportation. I would be happy if the government changed the interest rate and allowed me to refinance my loans for a longer pay period at a rate under 3%, as my small amount of undergrad loans were fixed at in 2006. Instead, the government/Obama offers an all or nothing IBR forgiveness deal. Take the forgiveness after 10 or 25 years or go on paying 60% of your income to loan companies for the next 10 years, delaying your ability to buy a house, start a family, etc? (Commentator who paid off grad school in 5 years and bought a house-- good for you. I don't know how you did it.)

In spite of all this, I can't really say that I regret my education. I met and learned from other wonderful people lured by the same dream to Penn. Now I realize that I could have had a similar experience by renting my own studio, working part-time, and attending lots of exhibitions while living debt-free. The MFA credential is barely worth the paper it's printed on unless you are already established and being considered for tenure by rich, well-connected advocates (then it is a requirement). I thought that I needed this degree in order to be an artist. Now I know that determination, work ethic, and the willingness to stay informed and reach out to other artists is more important than the degree. For any artist reading this, that's my two cents. That's all I can afford (obviously). Sorry to have taken up so much space and thanks again to any people who commented. Even if I do IBR loan forgiveness, I will make a point of trying to give more to my community than I take by working for a nonprofit, trying to make decent art, informing others of my experience, and having the grace to say thank you to all hardworking Americans who unwittingly have to pay taxes to support bad financial policies. I am amongst you and perhaps supported by you at the same time.

**disneysteve** · 06-01-2012, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by nicolewhi View Post

I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania with a Master's in Fine Art

My current graphic design job pays $11/hr, or around $20,000 a year.

You got an undergraduate degree and then an Ivy League graduate degree so you could earn 20K/year? Seriously?

Depending on what state you are in, minimum wage would be paying you nearly $19,000/year. I don't know what you are currently doing but you need to stop doing it ASAP and get a better job.

As for painting, if it takes you 1-2 years to complete a painting, how will you be able to have a solo show in 5 years. I'm guessing you need more than 3 or 4 paintings to warrant a show. I'd stop spending 3-5 hours/day painting and start spending 3-5 hours/day working for pay. I can understand "life passion" but you've got to pay the bills first.

I admittedly know very little about the art world but something just doesn't sound right here. Rather than looking for ways to avoid repaying your loans, I'd be focusing all of your time and energy on finding the job/career that will carry you into the future.

**nicolewhi** · 06-01-2012, 08:29 PM

job ideas

Originally posted by disneysteve View Post

You got an undergraduate degree and then an Ivy League graduate degree so you could earn 20K/year? Seriously?

Depending on what state you are in, minimum wage would be paying you nearly $19,000/year. I don't know what you are currently doing but you need to stop doing it ASAP and get a better job.

As for painting, if it takes you 1-2 years to complete a painting, how will you be able to have a solo show in 5 years. I'm guessing you need more than 3 or 4 paintings to warrant a show. I'd stop spending 3-5 hours/day painting and start spending 3-5 hours/day working for pay. I can understand "life passion" but you've got to pay the bills first.

I admittedly know very little about the art world but something just doesn't sound right here. Rather than looking for ways to avoid repaying your loans, I'd be focusing all of your time and energy on finding the job/career that will carry you into the future.

My experiment with a better paying job was teaching mathematics for a year at a title one public high school. I grossed $25k for a year of work in New Mexico. Then I moved to Oklahoma (family issues, detailed above). Here, you can make $40 a contract year for teaching after having taught 16 years. Before that, you make around $25k your first few years. However, with No Child Left Behind, standardized testing, last-in-first-out policies, etc., the classroom is a really sad place to be right now. It was too much for me to balance with art. I thought it could carry me into the future, but it made me want to hide under a rock every day. There are districts that pay more, but I think teaching is a calling, like wanting to be an artist. You can't go into it for the money.

The life passion thing is really hard to deal with but that sort of thing doesn't just go away. I really think my best bet is continuing with graphic design/freelance illustration/web design plus my own art work. I'm already so invested in the arts. I just am lacking in some of the marketable, production artist skills that I need to command a higher salary. One would think that an undergrad degree from a top ten school (summa cum laude no less) plus a grad degree at an ivy league would have given me some ability to find a money making profession, but not so. I got a painting scholarship to go to undergrad, which is why I don't have much debt from there. I got a $20,000 scholarship to go to grad school as well---but obviously that wasn't enough to cover all of Penn's expenses. A drop in the bucket really.

Oh-- and as for a solo show in 5 years--- I can pad it with drawings. I have lots of these. Also, I'm at the start of a new body of work. It has taken me a year or so to finish a painting while teaching full time. Now that my job is less demanding and I know more of what I'm doing, I expect to be able to finish paintings faster as the years progress. I know this all sounds crazy. But this is what other artist friends that I know are doing. This is kind of how it goes.

If you aren't terribly knowledgeable about the art world, that's okay. But know that a small Dutch still life made in the 17th century took as many as 4 years to complete. Nowadays, famous artists hire "studio assistants" to create all their work, which they sell to galleries and fairs internationally. This is another "profession" that many of my fellow university friends have fallen into. The pay for this also is around $10-$12/hr.

Another experiment with a higher paying wage job: mechanical drafting. I know AutoCAD (software for drawing machine parts) somewhat. My boyfriend's studying engineering and I've studied a bit with him. However, how much does an entry level CAD job pay? Around $10-$12 an hour.

**LivingAlmostLarge** · 06-02-2012, 08:10 AM

But teachers making $25k have pensions, medical, job security and other perks to make up for the lower income. Do you have that doing graphic design for $20k? I'm not saying teaching isn't low salary, trust me I've heard it from a friend who had $100k in student loans (Wellesley and then a private Master's in Education she was dumb) who makes $40k/year teaching 3rd grade. But teaching has other perks like she said that other jobs that pay less don't. 2-3 months off a year. Family friendly holidays, etc. So benefits are not necessarily financial but they are there. She's counting on her pension to retire (personally I wouldn't).

But I think that perhaps you need to explore right how to make more money. Right now you are caring for your boyfriend's daughter but what if you want your own child? Do you want to be struggling? Do you want to be paying on a student loan when your own child is going to college? Do you want to be hand to mouth and have no retirement?

These are questions to ask as you think about the future now. NOT in 5 years when suddenly you may want a child. I am not downing the repayment plan nor am I thinking it's easy, but now is probably the time to do a career change or get new skills.

**joshuaking** · 10-12-2012, 09:37 AM

I am an artist also and understand the struggles. What about signing up for IBR, and then when you start making more money, you can pay more than the minimum? That way you have the safety net of the program, while contributing more as you are able to.

**elessar78** · 10-12-2012, 11:36 AM

I'm also a graphic designer. I've been in the profession for ten years.

My university design program helped me right out of school with contacts from our alumni base, which I still use ten years later to score work. Maybe you can hit them up for contacts for the better.

Can you do freelance? I believe there's a ton of freelance opportunities out there because small business needs stuff designed but don't have a huge budget. I think you could do a ton of work in a major metro area that is in the realm of one-hour projects (simple ads, coupons, etc) that you charge say $50-$100/hour for. I moved to a small town about 15,000 population and I can still find regular freelance work that I charge $150/hour for. Not mentioning this to make you feel bad but to show you what the actual potential is. Trust me, there are hundreds of potential clients looking for simple design work that will think paying $25, $50, $75 a bargain compared to what an agency will charge.

In this day and age, with the internet, geography is no longer the limiting factor it once was. I have clients that are over 300 miles away. They like working with me because I don't charge "big city" prices for big city work.

"Creativity" in our line of work isn't limited to what we put down on paper, but at least half the time it's how we create and generate business for ourselves.

It'll take a lot of work and long days to get going to get equipment and build a client base. It could take months or years.

With the paintings, again, I'd search for different avenues than dealers. 50% is a whopping amount to take from a sale.

In all honesty, I think the label "starving artist" is more self fulfilling than anything. It's too many kids I went to art school with who wanted idealized a Bohemian lifestyle and opted out of the system only to find that the system still exists around you whether you like it or not. No one who's wiling to work has to starve. I still have friends who worry about being labeled as sellouts because of their success.

As an artist, you should be more than aware of leaving behind conventions. Working 40 hours a week is an arbitrary convention. Being a starving artist is a cliche. Even once you're making money, good money, no one has to know�you can still keep wearing your paint spattered clothes and you can tell people your parents gave you that sedan you're driving around in.

Your art will be no less honest than when you were broke.

Also, there's a segment of the population�like my wife and I. We like art, but no way in hell would we pay gallery prices. We'd pay $200 for a painting but not $2,000. I don't know why more artists don't sell their stuff for less and create more turnover. You know what? Instead, these people looking for "real art" cover their walls with photos of their kids and go to Target or pottery barn for cheesy glicee prints that's in every other neighbor's house.

**Shewillbemine** · 03-20-2015, 03:15 AM

Please stop digging up 3 year old threads.

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Starving Artist-- Student Loan Debt

Starving Artist-- Student Loan Debt

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