The next debt bubble to pop.

[Scanner]

Is Law School a Losing Game? - Yahoo! Finance

And this is just one field. My own field, chiropractic, has it's problems with this too (although they don't seem as acutely bad as law right now) among others.

Taxpayors are going to get peeved and demand reform.

If I wanted a cash cow, I'd open a school. Honestly, I would, if I had the means. Trade school, professional school, whatever. Government checks every semester. . .guaranteed. Easy, peasy, japaneesey.

[wrk4lvg]

Make sure to watch "College, Inc." It's a documentary on for profit schools and the BILLIONS they make.

[elessar78]

I think it's easy to peg law schools as liars or cheats, but so many of my peers just go into it without knowing the details.

I always found it amusing that some of my friends whom I graduated with (accountants, lawyers) made 1.5x to 2x what I did out of college. But also worked twice as many hours as I did and were essentially forced to live a more expensive lifestyle than I did. A lot of them said they had no time to spend their money or blew a lot of it on "pleasure" because they worked so much.

I'm considering getting my MBA these days but I'm worried about stuff like the article outlined. What if the pay raise that I'm going to school for doesn't materialize? It's also amusing how many people go into BUSINESS SCHOOL and not approach it as a business proposition. What's the return on investment?

[Scanner]

The problem is. . .it's getting beyond just "full disclosure" - it's about what does the taxpayor (who funds this through subsidized loans) get in return for the tax dollar?

More lawyers? More lawyers working at Starbucks? More chiropractors? More chiropractors dealing cards? Hey, as long as they don't default, I suppose you can adopt a "buyer beware" attitude.

In my field, even though there are a lot of career changers relatively speaking, I think the default rate on subsidized and unsubsidized loans was > 4%, which is below average of 5% for all college degrees (these are old, old stats, not sure what the new stats are). HEAL loans were a real scandal years ago until the colleges self-pulled them out of embarrassment.

But if whatever field is defaulting, it's time to force reform.

It's either gotta go capitalisitc (no subsidies - you want the degree, you go to the bank and borrow or pay as you go)

or

It's gotta go socialistic (gov't subsidizes needed degrees).

This hodgepodge of capitalism/socialism is not working.

No one would argue as a society we need more attorneys. I say go socialistic - only fund loans (or weight them) for degrees with a need - nursing, energy technology, business. I paid 50% of my way through and was able to control loans but I also admit I did use the subsidized/unsubsidized loans available. In that, I suppose I took advantage whereas perhaps I am pulling that advantage away.

I am not sure what else there is to do though, at this point.

We can't afford to prop up the University system in the whole US of A.

[Slug]

The correlation to business school is a solid one. If you are going to go the MBA or JD route then apply to the top 20 schools, and then work hard to get noticed by recruiters once you get in. That's the formula to avoid being the JD waiter or MBA telemarketer.

The opportunity costs for me were better than most (only about $100k in lost salary + $75k in student loans). A lot of people give up a lot more for the chances that a professional degree offers.

[snshijuptr]

This relates to our posts on another thread.

I would say that government subsidies aren't as much of the problem as the cultural notion that more education will automatically equal a higher salary. Education is a HUGE investment RISK! Not only are you taking out loans or investing a lot of money and possible earnings, but you also have the risk of changing interests. Many people I know went in for a higher degree and ended up pushed away from their original purpose (including myself). Another risk is the changing job market. Look at all the teachers who entered school in 2005-2008 and cannot get jobs. We thought back then that we would always need teachers. Yeah, right.

[elessar78]

That's a good a point, I always concern myself with: the changing job market. Not that things change radically in two years, but they can. An in demand field may not be so in demand when you get out. The problem with chasing a hyped field is that you may be behind the 8-ball. A lot of college age people are entering the same field at the same time which reduces demand and therefore salaries.

[Scanner]

Good points. . .a local hospital just laid off about 70 nurses. . .I am not sure if they will be quickly absorbed or not. . .but going into nursing was a "sacred cow" of career advancement a few years ago.

Maybe a job market is like the stock market - it's all timing. Now is the time to go to law school or whatever.

[Scanner]

New graduates find nursing job market a bitter pill - The Daily Breeze

Here is an article outlining where 40% of new grads can't find a nursing job.

Yet, there is a nursing shortage.

Simple supply and demand economics just doesn't always work, I suppose.

[elessar78]

Some would argue that the stock market isn't about timing . That it's about long term viability and not chasing the next hot thing.

I got talked out of pursuing a JD by a good friend. He's a successful trial lawyer and he said that there's easier ways to make money.

I don't know if my gut is right, but if great cash flow isn't in the cards for your primary job then it's the hustle that's going to make the difference. Not the degree, necessarily. How do you maximize dollars per hour. Most of these careers; law, finance, etc. don't work your standard 40 hours usually.

Can we say 50 hours/week for 50 weeks is the max the average person with a family can work and still have personal time and time with his family? How does one maximize the profitability of that 50 hours?

[elessar78]

New graduates find nursing job market a bitter pill - The Daily Breeze

Here is an article outlining where 40% of new grads can't find a nursing job.

Yet, there is a nursing shortage.

Simple supply and demand economics just doesn't always work, I suppose.

In a modern economy like ours, people need to be more mobile. To be able to move from where jobs are not to where jobs are plentiful. I think the housing model that urges people to homeownership limits mobility greatly. From an economic perspective it's inefficient.

There's all these nurses that aren't near the jobs.

To make matters worse, sometimes certain levels of professionals like nurses, teachers, etc. can't afford to live in the areas they serve.

[Scanner]

Yeah, I think after having a dialogue with you guys on teh subject, a moderate compromise could be reached.

Maybe the current student loan system should be reformed to be a "match" system with tuition, room and board.

I saw many students at chiropractic school driving nice cars, borrowing the maximum, not rooming with people, partying at "you-know-what" bars on the weekend and never having to pony up a dime. I tried to at least pay my room and board and then just borrowed tuition.

Average debt at the time I graduated - 90K. Mine: 52K. Really made a difference believe it or not. I didn't have to refi. out to 25 years. I just kept my 10 year note and paid it down in 6.5 years.

Now, I make the average salary of a DC, maybe a little more and to a student, there can be a false allure. (but I also moonlight doing CAT scans. . .see? I'm not rolling in it)

I think there should be a match system like this - a way to make sure the person is "invested" is to magically make them pony up some $$$. All of the sudden, they'll start asking more questions. If there is a real free market (or a partial one), perhaps universities will strive to not outpace inflation on tuition also.

I have little regrets too - I have enjoyed serving in patient care since about 1997. I wouldn't fault anyone for any of my choices. The problem was I asked admission counselor specifically, "Will I make the average after some time?" and they said, "Yes." Mmm. . .like law school. . .that's deceptive.

[snafu]

Sorry, I'm not very sympathetic with lawyer W. of the article. We graduated in an earlier meltdown and quickly realized the need to use our degrees to get a foot in the door of the screening process, examine our personal strengths and use our ability to learn into an occupation that would hire us. We were expected to 'pay our dues' in a small community, in a small firm, or in a region with ghastly weather but we had jobs that paid the bills.

I know nil about the legal profession but I wonder about opportunities for new graduates to create their own business offering Security Checking for small business, or seminars for micro businesses How to Write a Business Plan, niche market 'Doctors, Protect Yourselves, Avoid Being Sued,' What you Need to Know to Confidently Sell/Buy a House without a Realtor [save yourself a bundle].

Since big Orange runs it's own DIY 1/2 day seminars like how to put up drywall or how to lay laminate etc. why not mimic the model and run seminars at big Office Supply outlets like Staples to Write your Will, Health Care Directive, Enduring Power of Attorney. Sell the pre made, state compliant forms and make money by being official witness/Commissioner of Oaths/notary Public. All of the service clubs would likely be interested in your seminars as they often seek inexpensive guest speakers.

The major point of it all is who you meet and who sees you as the individual they want to hire.