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Rollover: Annuity vs. 401k, Roth IRA

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  • Rollover: Annuity vs. 401k, Roth IRA

    last year my wife changed companies and had to wait a year before she could invest in her new company's 401K (non-matching plan). She's since started contributing the max to her new plan (as do I with my plan). However, we have a decision to make with the old 401k plan. Recently we met with two different financial advisors who of course pitched us on the variable annuities particularly those with the Guaranteed Minimum Benefit, one of which guaranteed that you would receive no less than double your original purchase price after a 20 year investment (all surrender fees disappear after year 8). The fees that I'm aware of so far are .55% (55 basis points) for the guaranteed benefit and 1.5% for account charges, no load with the option to annuitize or withdraw freely after 59 1/2. The fund also states that purchases are uninsured (not sure if that's standard or has dubious implications).

    Now, i'm generally skeptical about advisors, and I read over the fund contract (Mass Mutual) and annuities in general. Still I can not seem to come to a conclusion as to whether this is a bad idea as most proclaim, based on the circumstances. From what I understand thus far, here is the incentive:

    If I am guaranteed twice my purchase price, let's say 100k, then over a 20 year period my gain would be minimally 200k (3.5% return) - 2% account fees that i'm aware of, and whatever my normal tax rate would be. Not great, but not a loss with the exception of the standard tax rate which will be for a lower bracket. However, with a guaranteed benefit I would get either the minimum benefit or the actual gain if greater than the 200k. This in effect would allow me to invest more aggressively which I would not do without the guarantee. And if I in fact see a return of 12% from this investment stratedgy, then as I understand it, I would still only be giving up 2% to the broker for fees (which is probably 1.5% higher than your typical mutual fund) and paying the ordinary income tax rate, which may be a difference of 10 to 15% from the capital gains rate. The question is given the circumstances and those types of figures, would it not seem that there's enough incentive to buy this annuity if it in fact it allows me to invest more aggressively for the potential of a larger return while offering at least a minimal gain if there's a loss on the principal?
    Last edited by mceric; 02-10-2010, 11:45 AM.

  • #2
    A few things to look for

    a) will the investment inside the insurance wrapper reinvest dividends?
    b) is there a cap on the returns the annuity gives you (for example if market returns 30%, do you get all 30%)?

    If you invested with Vanguard, T Rowe Price or Fidelity, how would you invest that money? What return would you expect?

    Over 20 years, if you invest 100k (your example), I could make a bad decision and get 200k. I could make a good decision and get 400k. Its possibly I could even get 800k.


    A Bad decision for the 100k would be to roll it into a CD for 20 years. Find an interest rate of about 4% and its 200k after 20 years.

    A good decision-Get a 7% return on that money and its 400k after 20 years. Invest 40% of it in stocks and 60% in bonds, that is a highly reliable 7% return many people bank their retirements on.

    A great decision would be if 100k was invested and received between 10-11% returns (think 80% stocks or 100% stocks).

    What you would not want is 2% taken away each year in fees. Compare what your "advisors" were selling you to an annuity at Vanguard (for example) and see if you can get same thing for cheaper.

    Look up asset allocation examples and see if you can do the same thing yourself.

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    • #3
      I'd make sure to look up the surrender charge that would be assessed should you decide to roll the money to another investment or a new 401K. These are often higher in the first few years and often assessed up to 8 years after the original investment.

      Personally, I'd avoid annuities, because of all the fees involved.
      My other blog is Your Organized Friend.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by jIM_Ohio View Post
        is there a cap on the returns the annuity gives you (for example if market returns 30%, do you get all 30%)?
        Jim,

        You are right on with this line of thinking.....

        Many of those products cap at a certain percent per year. One (that I know of that allows for unlimited growth and
        a non-modeled portfolio is Jackson National. BTW, I am not affiliated in any way with Jackson.

        For folks who have the same idea as you do, Mceric, (that is to increase the aggressiveness to, in effect, pay for the insurance wrapper) they're not too bad. One MUST not touch the money, except as the contract allows. This "illiquidity" is, in my opinion, the greatest drawback to VA's. This drawback is often very underestimated. Life happens!

        Having said that, I think that most of these products do have a available 10% that can be withdrawn per year without blowing up the guarantees.

        I personally would still rather have a portfolio made up of Vanguard funds, allocated in a way to suit your risk and goals.

        Jeff
        401k Advice
        Last edited by jefffou; 02-10-2010, 12:46 PM. Reason: didn't like the original

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