Cash For Clunkers

[shultice24]

Be real, it is not reasonable to expect people to load up a family with suitcases into compact cars.

You can't pull boats with golf carts. You can't haul sheetrock or other building materials with out power and size.

This is america, just drill.

Well, the problem is- America (and the planet as a whole) doesn't have enough oil to keep burning through 80 million + barrels every single day. Maybe enough to last through your lifetime, but what about our kids and grandkids? Are we willing to screw those generations over because our generations failed to plan ahead? It sounds to me like that's what you're proposing.

If we collectively turned our back on the facts and kept using fossil fuels and other nonrenewable resources at a breakneck pace, as if by a divine right, we would lead humanity straight to the grim reaper. But once again, it sounds as if this is your answer?

Is it possible that gas-burning boats and cross-country automobile trips in gas-burning vehicles are not objectively sustainable for much longer?

I think you're incorrectly assuming that, long term, we can have our cake and eat it too. I believe that those of us who have been living the good are going to have to make some really tough sacrifices. I'm not pessimistic at all; I'm think I'm being a realist.

[shultice24]

Hey Maat,

I think I can sum up my response to you in this way: is there any law of the universe that gives us the unconditional right to haul a boat behind a truck or haul a family across the country in a personal vehicle?

Unfortunately for us the answer is definitely no, and we need to accept the fact that some of the luxuries we've accumulated may need to be scaled back. We will probably have to make tough sacrifices. Refusing to believe that is a sure route to big trouble.

[Scanner]

Go ahead and drill I say. . .let me help you with the drill bit. I don't care if they drill in my back yard personally. But what irks me is the Right just thinks that's the solution to the problem (Drill Baby, Drill).

Until the next crisis. . .then we start talking alternatives.

I'm going to say something that sticks in the craw of the Right. . .here goes. . .Jimmy Carter was a good President. He was the first President to get us on an Energy Program, Reagan came in there and scrapped it (and Bush and Clinton ignored it). Carter understood our national security and oil dependence were tied at the hip. But the Right had a heydey with him as much as the Left had a heydey with Bush II.

The environmentalists in this are almost a red herring. . .there are plenty of other good reasons besides global warming to stop using oil for something as mundane as getting back and forth to work. Yes, we'll always need oil for plastics, fertilizers, and pharmaceuticals. . .which again, is why we shouldn't be burning it to go back and forth to work.

Hell, I don't need a Ford 150 to get back and forth to work. I would erect a wind sail if I thought it work and be cheap. Americans get so damn proud or something about burning gas. I almost can palpate the sense of entitlement to burning gas in this thread. Guess what? None of us has a Constitutional right to cheap gas either (since the Right is fond of pointing out entitleistic mindset. . .I think it's appropriate to turn it upon them).

Which is why I actually think hydrogen intermediary is the answer. Hydrogen is fairly explosive and could theorectically be used in a Ford F150 or a little compact.

[shultice24]

Americans get so damn proud or something about burning gas. I almost can palpate the sense of entitlement to burning gas in this thread. Guess what? None of us has a Constitutional right to cheap gas either (since the Right is fond of pointing out entitleistic mindset. . .I think it's appropriate to turn it upon them).

Very well said, Scanner.

[disneysteve]

None of us has a Constitutional right to cheap gas

True. And what made people finally start caring about conservation? $4.00/gallon gasoline. Now that it is back down a lot ($2.45 around here), people stopped caring.

I say hike the price and leave it there. Use the money not to line the pockets of ExxonMobil execs but rather to fund development of alternative energy sources.

[shultice24]

True. And what made people finally start caring about conservation? $4.00/gallon gasoline. Now that it is back down a lot ($2.45 around here), people stopped caring.

I say hike the price and leave it there. Use the money not to line the pockets of ExxonMobil execs but rather to fund development of alternative energy sources.

That's the ticket!!! We should have done that long ago, and we could have gradually weaned ourselves off cheap oil. Imagine where we would be today if America took that advice 15-20 years ago (or if we would have stuck with Carter's policies)?

I see in another thread that some aren't crazy about the politcal talk that's seeping into these forums, but it sure can be fun.

[GREENBACK]

Hey Greenback,

I think you misunderstood me in a few ways, but I could have made myself clearer:

I definitely don't think it's hideous to haul wood, pull cars out of the ditch, and do normal things in your truck. I live out in the country; we do the same thing, and I'm not about to suggest to my folks that they get rid of the old GMC. Gosh hopefully I didn't come across as a truck-hating hippie.

What I was referring to was people who buy Hummers and F150's simply as a status symbol and the thing never leaves the roadway. It goes from the office back to suburbia, and to soccer games on the weekend. That's what disgusts me, the fact that people drive a v8, get 12 mpg, for no practical purpose (and they're probably the first to complain when gas prices climb). I'm guessing you can agree with that better-explained logic?

I in no way referred to the cap and trade bill and Cash for Clunkers as the real solutions. Many of the real solutions come from individuals as well as from the business world. Most government 'solutions' are anything but.

Off topic I know, but I saw a funny saying that said: "Government: You think our problems our scary? Wait til you see our solutions." haha


Drilling can help, but I'm afraid that we can't drill without losing urgency and realizing it's only a tiny, tiny part of the bigger picture. Let's go ahead and do it, but not forget that fact. Also, the biggest reason why we're hooked on OPEC isn't because we don't use our own resources; it's because of all our wasteful ways. Obama mentioned once that, if all Americans would simply keep their tire pressures inflated correctly, we would save more oil than would be produced by offshore drilling (or was it ANWR?). In either case, that makes you think.

A concrete example to back my thinking (I hope). Since oil reserves are becoming scarce, Exxon is investing billions upon billions of dollars into tapping natural gas reserves, which are much cleaner than oil. If we approved offshore drilling, then by necessity they would probably have to cut back on natural gas investment to spend more creating new rigs. In the long term, I would argue that this would create more problems than it solves.

I'm feeling a sense of deja-vu. Have we discussed this before?

Thankyou for clarifying your position. I agree that no one needs a Hummer to drive to the office. Frankly, I think that's stupid even if you're a millionaire. This has been discussed here before and will be again I'm sure...lol.

I do consider myself an enviormentalist and ,yes, I'm a political conservative. I very much want to see alternative energy sources become reality. As things currently stand, we are going to need oil for quite a long time. I don't think we should pretend that it isn't so. In addition, Our neighbors in the world are going to need petroleum as well, particularly as they become more developed and have to compete on the world stage.

There isn't an easy answer here. We tend to demonize oil companies but their profit margins really aren't any different than numerous large corporations who provide a highly valuable product (think Microsoft, Procter and Gamble, General electric....etc.). These companies, by the way, are also very much reliant on the petroleum industry. I'm not saying that I'm in love with Exxon or Shell or any other oil company but they will likely be the ones who have the biggest impact on what our future energy supplies will be. Their very existence depends on them being a player in this game. I don't believe they have evil top executives who couldn't care less about destroying the earth. They have children and grandchildren too.

My whole point,which I believe I've stated, is that we should seek out whatever oil reserves are available, in a responsible way, as we pursue alterative energy.

People kind of freak out when something like drilling in ANWR is brought up. I remember similar sentiment about the Alaska pipeline interfering with the caribou migration. It didn't happen. The caribou barely notice the thing. I think they hang around it to keep warm.

[shultice24]

Greenback,

Thanks you for your reply as well. I feel similar to Scanner; it's not the actual drilling that I have problems with, it's the fact that so many on the right portrayed it as a major solution all on it's own. Your logic is much more solid.

[cptacek]

I thought at some point in the 70's, we were trying to develop synthetic gasoline. Once that was funded, the oil embargo was lifted, prices went down and we stopped trying for synthetic gas? (Forgive me, I was born in '77, so this isn't first hand knowledge.)

Is that true? Is that dead technology? If not, why aren't we pursuing that?

[maat55]

Eventually, natural gas and other sources such as the Volt that is coming out next year, will be the norm on the road. IMO, we will wean ourselves off oil before the oil is gone.

Shultice, you can revert to the cave if you like, but I think modern society is savy enough to make what we want work. BTW, how big is your house and how big should ones house be?

[shultice24]

Eventually, natural gas and other sources such as the Volt that is coming out next year, will be the norm on the road. IMO, we will wean ourselves off oil before the oil is gone.

Shultice, you can revert to the cave if you like, but I think modern society is savy enough to make what we want work. BTW, how big is your house and how big should ones house be?

I agree wholeheartedly with that first paragraph. I can't wait to see the Volt released, and I hope it's a smashing success.

I never meant to imply that we should automatically give up the luxuries of modern living, only that we should realize that we aren't entitled to any material standard, especially when you consider how horrible the past handful of generations have treated our planet. Whether we want to or not, we may have to make some tough sacrifices.

I'm still a college student, so I don't own a house. I live in an apartment complex on campus, where I put very few miles on my vehicle. Someday though my goal is to own a home that supplies itself with almost all the energy it needs.

How big should one's house be? I have a feeling you could start that as a thread and it could go on for eternity. It would get into some really deep philosophical/ethical issues.

I was only trying to raise the important questions, not anger you.

[maat55]

I agree wholeheartedly with that first paragraph. I can't wait to see the Volt released, and I hope it's a smashing success.

I never meant to imply that we should automatically give up the luxuries of modern living, only that we should realize that we aren't entitled to any material standard, especially when you consider how horrible the past handful of generations have treated our planet. Whether we want to or not, we may have to make some tough sacrifices.

I'm still a college student, so I don't own a house. I live in an apartment complex on campus, where I put very few miles on my vehicle. Someday though my goal is to own a home that supplies itself with almost all the energy it needs.

How big should one's house be? I have a feeling you could start that as a thread and it could go on for eternity. It would get into some really deep philosophical/ethical issues.

I was only trying to raise the important questions, not anger you.

I don't get angry, I just engage in spirited debate and forget to use the smilies.

[shultice24]

I don't get angry, I just engage in spirited debate and forget to use the smilies.

Haha!

[tmvijai]

Looks like I missed a hot conversation. It took me a while to go thru 4 pages of thread to see some spicy conversations taking turns from clunker program to cheap oil to environment and much more.

I was actually attracted because I wrote about this very topic in my blog few days ago taking 3 different perspectives and got few emails on them.

Cash for Clunkers Program - Is it really helping? | money really matters

I would like you guys to check it out since I summarized lot of things from web. Please don't hesitate to throw your feedback here.

[Broken Arrow]

Cash for Clunkers Program - Is it really helping? | money really matters

That's a really good article you wrote there! The conclusions are similar, I think, to the discussions here and elsewhere. In the end, yes, I do think that the only real benefactors of the CARS program are car manufacturers and car dealers.

It's a shame too, because for a short while, I've feverishly looked things up and punched numbers to see if it's something I can take advantage of. Alas, not I. In fact, I think it's largely working against the consumer's favor by creating an artificial seller's market.