How much tax..

[VJW]

Re: How much tax..

Jesse,

Thanks.

I was busy working on a project.

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[VJW]

Re: How much tax..

If you work on the assumption that giving someone a job is better than giving them money

Well, I certainly operate on the assumption that providing a job is better than giving people, or corporations, money.

then I'd say that the wealthy already do plenty for society by creating so many jobs.

That has never happened.

The U.S. is not a ‘Supply-side’ economy. The U.S. is a demand economy, which is why 70% of the national economy is Consumer Spending.

Providing tax cuts to the wealthy and corporate has NEVER created jobs or improved the U.S. national economy at any point in our history.

Why do services have to be provided by a monopoly?

What “monopoly” ?

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[Bruce Wayne]

Re: How much tax..

What “monopoly” ?

I'm British so I'll use UK examples.

Education. State schools are paid for out of tax. You can use private schools but you still have to pay your taxes for the state education you could have had. You don't get a choice about paying for a state education, even if you choose not to have one.

Health. Similar situation in health services. You pay taxes for the National Health Service, whether you use it or not, and you pay on your ability to pay rather than your demand for the services. You can pay extra for private cover but, again, you're paying twice for one service.

This is what I mean by a monopoly. You can't say that choice is being offered in either health or education when you have to pay twice to get that choice.

[VJW]

Re: How much tax..

Education. State schools are paid for out of tax. You can use private schools but you still have to pay your taxes for the state education you could have had.

Of course.

One of our Founding Fathers, John Adams, wrote into the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts:

"It shall be the DUTY of the government to educate everybody".

The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is the oldest written constitution in existence that is still in use in the entire world today. It was a model for the U.S. Constitution, and it's objectives are embodied in our Preamble.

You don't get a choice about paying for a state education, even if you choose not to have one.

But you do have a choice. You can attend public schools or CHOOSE to pay for private schools.

Health. Similar situation in health services. You pay taxes for the National Health Service, whether you use it or not

Just as we pay for fire stations, whether we have a fire or not. It’s called public safety. Just as we pay for fire insurance, whether we have a fire or not. It’s called insurance.

and you pay on your ability to pay rather than your demand for the services.

You would want the sickest to carry most of the burden ? Such a system would quickly collapse. That’s where the concept of a ‘pool’ of insured stemmed from. Of course, American insurance companies have resorted to “cherry-picking” to increase their profits and limit their losses, and then gouging consumers.

This is what I mean by a monopoly. You can't say that choice is being offered in either health or education when you have to pay twice to get that choice.

You only “pay twice”, as you frame it, if YOU CHOOSE TO.

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[Bruce Wayne]

Re: How much tax..

I'll be blunt. The state provided health and education facilities are pretty poor. The government keeps taxing more and more and more and more of this tax is wasted in beauocracy. It's wasted because there is no choice or competition. I've worked in schools before and it's a turgid experience. I'm afraid that paying twice for one service isn't any kind of choice that I know of.

[PrincessPerky]

Re: How much tax..

I have to agree with bruce, and I am talking about American schools .

We havn't yet come to the point where ALL schools are bad, nor have we got public health care, but I do think it is comming with the current, "get the govt to fix the problem" opinions of many.

10% is a simple easy to remember number, not an actual use me number, if 5% goes to income tax then I guess it is 45-75% in sneaky ways, I belive the word sneaky was missed by you.

The fact that a flate rate of say 17% would not cover govt costs now is a fact, the opinion that the flate rate doesn't need to pay current govt costs is an opinion. My opinion.

The fact that the govt wants billions of dollers for billions of misc pet projects is a fact, the opinion that it is wrong is an opinion, my opinion.

The fact that the general consensus of polls is 'the govt should do something about the trials of the poor' is a fact (course it is a fact of others opinions) The opinion that people would reach out to help if there was no assumption that the govt would/could do it all, is an opinion, my opinion.

Sorry bout the short post but it is obvious to me my method of explaining things does not change your bias, so I will save myself the effort. (not to mention I have a kid or two to educate, and I guess I chose to spend the loot to do it on my own , course I firmly believe it will save me in the long run, in the short term I am low on cash and time.)

Since so few of us enjoy debating, and so many do not, is there a way we can get a debate sub group?

[Bruce Wayne]

Re: How much tax..

I'd be interested in a debating sub-group

[jmjj215]

Re: How much tax..

As long as it stays a debate, and doesn't turn personal. A few times forumers have started attacking people personally b/c of their views - which should be avoided.

[34saving]

Re: How much tax..

Debate is always good but you're right that we need to be careful to be civil (some message boards are horrible!). Maybe it should be in a whole different category (like Bruce suggested) so somebody that accidently asks about a contraversial topic doesn't get hammered.

[VJW]

Re: How much tax..

I'll be blunt. The state provided health and education facilities are pretty poor. The government keeps taxing more and more and more and more of this tax is wasted in beauocracy. It's wasted because there is no choice or competition. I've worked in schools before and it's a turgid experience. I'm afraid that paying twice for one service isn't any kind of choice that I know of.

The socialized healthcare system in Britain is a disaster. Thankfully, nobody in America has ever advocated adopting a socialized healthcare system.

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[VJW]

Re: How much tax..

We havn't yet come to the point where ALL schools are bad

Hardly.

I don’t know where you’re residing, but nationally:

* High school completion rates, at roughly 90 percent in 2000, as well as college graduation rates, were at the HIGHEST LEVEL IN HISTORY.

* One in four adult Americans has at least a bachelor's degree – the highest percentage IN THE WORLD (and the percentage keeps getting higher).

* A larger percentage of twenty-two-year-olds receive degrees in math, science, or engineering in the United States than in any of our nation's major economic competitors.

* According to a national poll conducted by the Gallup Organization, when parents were asked about the particular school that their oldest child attended, 62 percent said the school earned an A or B.

Therefore, where we are willing to spend the money and resources, we can and do have the best public schools IN THE WORLD.

10% is a simple easy to remember number, not an actual use me number, if 5% goes to income tax then I guess it is 45-75% in sneaky ways, I belive the word sneaky was missed by you.

Sorry, but the fact is that NOBODY in America is paying anywhere CLOSE to 45% of their income in taxes.

The fact that a flate rate of say 17% would not cover govt costs now is a fact, the opinion that the flate rate doesn't need to pay current govt costs is an opinion. My opinion.

And you certainly are entitled to it, but you still haven’t explained HOW.

The fact that the general consensus of polls is 'the govt should do something about the trials of the poor' is a fact (course it is a fact of others opinions) The opinion that people would reach out to help if there was no assumption that the govt would/could do it all, is an opinion, my opinion.

And has been proven wrong historically.

Sorry bout the short post but it is obvious to me my method of explaining things does not change your bias

What “bias” ? Where would you get such an idea ? I’m merely presenting the documentable facts. If I’m stating an opinion, it will be labeled so (assuming it isn’t blatantly obvious).

:]

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[jmjj215]

Re: How much tax..

Hey VJW, did you catch that cover article in the most recent issue of Fortune magazine? Your stat about our % of 22 yr olds being highest in math, engineering, etc. really surprised me. The article didn't talk percentages but just shear volume of engineers (tech educations) that are coming out of India/China is totally stomping our numbers into the ground. This makes sense, since we're a fraction of those populations...

Anyway, I was curious if you had read it and what your thoughts were on the concerns brought up in that article.

[VJW]

Re: How much tax..

No I didn’t see it. Is this the issue ?:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/information/currentissue

As to the twenty-two-year-olds with degrees in math, science, or engineering, of course in raw numbers other countries would have larger totals, but as you mentioned, our population is but a fraction of those you cited. That’s why the stat is as a percentage of the respective populations. Apples to apples is the only possible manner in which to make such a comparison.

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[jeffrey]

Re: How much tax..

Since so few of us enjoy debating, and so many do not, is there a way we can get a debate sub group?

Hmmmm, I'll have to think about that.

My gutt opinion is that everyone is old enough to debate without it getting personal. If they aren't and therefore a debate area is needed, then my concern would be when debates get heated in the one area, then they are bound to carry over to other threads outside the area.

Will talk with Nate about it - and if there are posts that seem to be out of line and personally attacking instead of debating, let me know - the one thing that I really have enjoyed about these forums is everyone's tolerance of other's opinions while still being able to give their own and not having every thread turn into a name calling free for all. I plan to do my best to keep the forums that way.

[jmjj215]

Re: How much tax..

No I didn’t see it. Is this the issue ?:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/information/currentissue

As to the twenty-two-year-olds with degrees in math, science, or engineering, of course in raw numbers other countries would have larger totals, but as you mentioned, our population is but a fraction of those you cited. That’s why the stat is as a percentage of the respective populations. Apples to apples is the only possible manner in which to make such a comparison.

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It's the one before that, w/ Uncle Sam being picked on by a China guy at the beach.