Walmart Store Shelves Emptied in Louisiana Store

[hamchan]

That's interesting. I'd be very curious to see what they classify as "junk food" for the purpose of that statistic. I'd venture to say that 70-80% of what can be found in the typical supermarket is junk food.


That's a good point. I'd have no problem with people being able to buy necessities with their aid. That could easily be paid for by eliminating the ability to buy crap.

And I'm not only approaching this as an angry taxpayer but also as a concerned physician. I work in a very poor area. I see how people's diets affect their health and well being, and to some extent, I see how and what they eat and feed their kids. I know that much of it is purchased with government aid. So when I see an infant drinking blue juice in her baby bottle, it makes me cringe.

That may be true, Steve, but I think it's kind of unfair to hold food stamp users to a much higher nutritional standard than the rest of the country. It's not just poor people eating pre packaged foods. It's virtually everyone.

[bjl584]

That may be true, Steve, but I think it's kind of unfair to hold food stamp users to a much higher nutritional standard than the rest of the country. It's not just poor people eating pre packaged foods. It's virtually everyone.

I don't think it's unfair to hold food stamp users to a higher standard. The money that they are spending isn't theirs. It's someone else's. I can spend the money that I earn on any type of food that I want, but if I go grocery shopping with money that someone else earned, then that is a completely different story. There should be limits and restrictions on what can be purchased. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[disneysteve]

That may be true, Steve, but I think it's kind of unfair to hold food stamp users to a much higher nutritional standard than the rest of the country. It's not just poor people eating pre packaged foods. It's virtually everyone.

Do you think it would be okay for food stamps to cover tobacco and alcohol? It isn't only the poor who smoke and drink.

This is not a personal freedom issue in my mind. If you want to go out and buy ice cream and Oreos, go right ahead. It's your money. You earned it. But if you are dependent on food stamps, the rules should be different because then it is not your money. I don't think public funds should support bad behavior. Food stamps shouldn't cover Twinkies any more than they should cover Budweiser.

Another issue, putting on my doctor hat for a moment, is that folks getting food stamps are likely also on Medicaid for their health care. By allowing them to buy whatever they want at the grocery store, we're also increasing the cost of their medical care by increasing obesity, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, etc., further straining the system.

[Blessed]

I have to agree with Disney Steve. Our state just took some action on this and it angered a lot of people. If heaven forbid I ever need assistance I would have no problem with being told what I could buy. After all it would not be my money paying for it.

[hamchan]

Do you think it would be okay for food stamps to cover tobacco and alcohol? It isn't only the poor who smoke and drink.

Of course not, cigarettes are not food, and alcohol could only marginally be considered food. Even as it is there are food items that are not eligible for purchase on food stamps, such as hot foods and prepared foods from the deli.

Believe me, I understand the rationale behind not allowing people to buy Twinkies with food stamps, but in reality it's a pretty complex issue. Many people receiving food stamps are homeless, living in an SRO, occasionally go without power or gas, and thus for one reason or another are not able to cook. Go to the store and imagine you have no cooking facilities, no refrigeration. Maybe you even have to carry anything you buy with you everywhere. There are some foods you can still get, but not very many. If you start putting limits on even those it's just going to constituted a major hardship for so many people. Then you have the fact that a very large proportion of food stamp recipients are disabled and/or elderly, and you Aldo have single parents working late and their kids have to prepare their own meals. Convenience foods become quite necessary in many of these situations. Of course that is not an ideal diet, but nothing about being on welfare is ideal.

I just don't feel like the current amount being spent on junk food in any way justifies a complete overhaul of the system, which could very well make things even more difficult for people who are already in difficult situations.

You are also completely wrong about food stamp users most likely being on medicaid. Until the ACA most adults were not able to get Medicaid because the income limits were much lower. Sometimes lower than the poverty line. Depending on the state you can get food stamps at up to 200% of the federal poverty line.

[disneysteve]

Many people receiving food stamps are homeless

This is absolutely true. I have a number of patients who live in motels courtesy of public assistance. They usually have a little fridge and a microwave and that's it. No freezer. No stove. No oven. Their food choices are pretty limited and certain convenience foods become pretty necessary. For example, they could make the instant mac and cheese where you add boiling water but they couldn't make the kind that you have to cook on the stovetop.

I'm fine with all of that. But that still doesn't justify Twinkies, ice cream, or Red Bull.

Actually, I think they ought to be able to buy prepared foods from the deli. That would probably be better than much of the crap they eat.

[hamchan]

I have lived in SROs with no kitchen facilities whatsoever. If you wanted a mini fridge and microwave you had to buy them yourself. I have also lived in hostels where there is only a shared kitchen that is filthy and invested with flies and roaches. I have slept/lived in the airport. I have slept on a bare tile floor and wasn't allowed to use the kitchen or stay there at all during the day, so I hung out at the library for 14 hours. Being homeless is ****ty, Steve. When I did live in an SRO with a clean shared kitchen and my own mini fridge, and I actually had enough to pay my rent every month so I didn't have to leave every few days or weeks and find somewhere else to sleep, that felt luxurious by comparison. I didn't even consider myself to be homeless. I had a home. It wasn't a great home, but it was my home.

I am looking at this from the standpoint of a taxpayer though. Obviously on it's face it would seem like we should not be using taxpayer funds to pay for twinkies and red bull for poor people. But you have to look at the fact that it's going to cost us money to change the system. Probably a lot of money. And it's not going to save us money at all. When you consider that the facts show that people using food stamps are already moderating their consumption of junk food pretty darn well, it just isn't worth it. I'd much rather my taxes go to paying for a comparatively small amount of junk food, than pay even more taxes to fix a problem that doesn't really exist. IMO, reforming social assistance programs should not be based on principle alone. You have to weight the cost vs. the benefit.

[disneysteve]

I am looking at this from the standpoint of a taxpayer though. Obviously on it's face it would seem like we should not be using taxpayer funds to pay for twinkies and red bull for poor people. But you have to look at the fact that it's going to cost us money to change the system. Probably a lot of money. And it's not going to save us money at all. When you consider that the facts show that people using food stamps are already moderating their consumption of junk food pretty darn well, it just isn't worth it. I'd much rather my taxes go to paying for a comparatively small amount of junk food, than pay even more taxes to fix a problem that doesn't really exist. IMO, reforming social assistance programs should not be based on principle alone. You have to weight the cost vs. the benefit.

This is a fair enough argument. Maybe changing the system and policing it would be more trouble (and more cost) than it's worth. I just wonder why food stamps can't be set up the same way as WIC. You can't buy Red Bull with WIC money. There is a specific list of allowable foods and that system seems to work. I realize the food stamp system is far larger than the WIC system so it might be hard to scale it up.

[hamchan]

That is exactly why. It would be onerous in the extreme if it had to be used for every grocery item for an entire household. How do you decide what people can and can't buy? Even not taking into account people's ability to cook or not, there are different dietary needs to consider. I know that cooking meals for my husband that are diabetic, renal, and cardiac friendly (and which doesn't include foods he doesn't like, and won't eat) is a feat in and of itself, and we are using out own money with no limitations as to what we can buy. If we needed food stamps at some point in the future, which is entirely possible given his medical condition, I cannot even imagine the nightmare it would be if we had a bunch of restrictions on what we could and couldn't buy.

Besides dietary restrictions you also need to consider religious and cultural diets that differ greatly from what American's are used to eating. Some people have no teeth or severe enough dental issues that a soft diet is required. How would we make all of that work and not leave anyone in a difficult position?

Then you have to consider the logistics of making it work. WIC vouchers take a lot longer to check out in the grocery store (I've been on WIC, and was a cashier in college) and one voucher has only 8 items on it at the most. The checker has to verify that each item and brand is allowed, and in the right size too. If one thing is wrong the store does not receive payment for the entire voucher. And if the store is out of an item on your voucher you cannot get it later. It has to be used all at once. Even just shopping for the items takes longer, because you have to reference a list that is several pages long outlining what items you are allowed to buy. This doesn't even take into consideration the time, money, and effort it would take to overhaul the system in the first place.

[jeffrey]

Well this certainly got off topic. A friendly reminder that you are more than welcome to discuss and argue the topic in a friendly manner, but we don't allow it to get personal in these forums.

[ProjectDebtRelief]

The article isn't surprising in the least bit.

One of the major scams in our area (a major U.S. city) is people selling formula online that they have purchased with food stamps or WIC. Even with a system overhaul there is no way to prevent people from doing things that will prevent them from having to get a good ol' fashioned job.

[hamchan]

I completely agree that regardless of how the system is set up or managed there will be people who try to take illegal advantage of it. What is less often acknowledged however, is how much of this fraud is perpetrated by store owners and even unscrupulous social workers. The assumption is always that it's the poor who are bilking the system. The reality is that that is not always the case.

I kind of wish this thread had just stayed locked, because I would hate for it to turn back into a forum for bashing welfare users. My humble suggestion, to those of you who have participated in this thread, is to take the time to educate yourself about who the users of the food stamp program really are, the challenges they must overcome to be self sufficient, and the causes and effects of poverty. Much of my knowledge has come from doing a lot of reading on the subject, and much of it is from life experience, since I was homeless myself at one point. I now make well over the average income in the US, and I know exactly how hard it is and how much tireless effort it takes to achieve that after homelessness, even with a pretty good support system in place. It really pains me to see people who are where I used to be kicked when they are down, presumed to be criminals, presumed lazy, presumed to be drug addicts. I know what that feels like. And most of these attitudes are borne out of false assumptions, stereotypes, and regularly propagated misinformation.

The following links are a good place to start. I can give many links to reports, as well as book suggestions if anyone wants them. My experience has, unfortunately, been that most won't bother.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2667863/

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators08/report.pdf

[bigdaddybus]

Referencing Govt statistics to support the need for bloated Govt programs? ironic eh?

Personally, as a Conservative, pro-life loving, death penalty supporting, oil drillin, 2nd amendment lovin, man and woman marriage supportin, obamacare hatin,imigration reform wantin, long term welfare hatin, Christian I assume we dont have much in common.

I am the adoptive parent of two children taken away from thier parents for neglect. Their family history was 3-4 generations living at or below the poverty line...scraping by on handouts and Govt assistance. Do I believe that Govt is the solution here? No, as it didnt work for generations.
Do I belive that adopting these kids into a upper class family, in a stable supportive structure, where good education, no threat of abuse, and college are available options is a great solution. Yes, or I wouldnt have done it. These kids will have a chance to be anything they put their mind to, just like my 2 biologigal children.

As a foster parent I have had many opportunities to see people living off the system, and those that have used the system to improve thier life. Hamchan, in your experience it sounds like you have seem more people improve their lives through Govt help. I have seen that in limited amounts, I see alot of people taking advantage of Govt programs.

[hamchan]

I word think that the government would be the only entity who could reliably report on their own statistics. In any case, you should really take some time and read them.

[bigdaddybus]

Go Bobby!!!!

http://theadvocate.com/home/7514395-125/jindal-moves-to-strip-food