Paper?

[photo]

Yeah you are probably right about the forum being wrong. Its a habit after 30 years working for the big boys to expect to go to the investing and banking area. Why should I assume that professionals would be here.

No, you're a little slow on the uptake. Your arrogant assumption is that you have superior knowledge and that you want to find, in your words, "moldy people" to "wake up."

You didn't seem to read much here before you posted, so you didn't realize that people here are pretty sharp, and in fact, by the responses, understand things a lot more than you do.

[jpg7n16]

I worked with paper as a professional every day of my adult life. I have dealt with contracts, stocks, bond, bills of exchange,etc. for over 30 years. There seems to be a lot of confusion about paper. ....


...Article 1, Section 10, United States' Constitution

... However, the Ninth Circuit Court put that issue to rest in 1982 when they adjudicated:

...[Lewis vs. U.S., 680 F. 2d 1239, 1241]

The passage of the Federal Reserve Act was unconstitutional because 1) the US Constitution prohibited "bills of credit" (i.e., paper notes) and 2) the US Constitution would have to be amended to go off the silver and gold coin standard for money. The US Constitution, the supreme Law of the Land, can only be amended pursuant to Article V. The US Constitution cannot be amended by statute.

...Article I, Section 10 of the United States' Constitution states: "No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts." The united States' Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and this Law has never been amended.

Article I, Section 8 states: "The Congress shall have Power...to coin Money". Notice that it states "coin" not "print".

Anyone who reads James Madison's notes of the Constitutional Convention, The Federalist Papers, etc. will find that one of the purposes of the Constitutional Convention was to do away with paper money--entirely! Thus for the first 72 years from the founding of our nation the United States' Government only minted gold and silver COINS for money.

"It is apparent from the whole context of the Constitution as well as the history of the times which gave birth to it, that it was the purpose of the Convention to establish a currency consisting of the precious metals. These were adopted by a permanent rule excluding the use of a perishable medium of exchange, such as of certain agricultural commodities recognized by the statutes of some States as tender for debts, or the still more pernicious expedient of paper currency." [President Andrew Jackson, 8th Annual Message to Congress, December 5, 1836]

Am I the only who finds it highly comical, that this whole debate that paper and paper documents are worthless... is based on statements from paper and paper documents???

This thread is absurd

The Constitution is written on paper. Legal judgments are recorded on paper. And James Madison's notes weren't carved out of gold... they were/are on paper.

So if you can trust the Constitution enough to create an argument against currency, why can't you trust the other phrase on currency "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." Both are backed by the same US government...

Unless you're somehow trusting in Thomas Jefferson, who if you're not aware, passed away some time ago.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Goldenladyfun, you sell gold and you are itching to motivate people to buy it, right?

You are not bringing up any new ideas here. There are people on this forum who do buy in-kind gold and other metals, some with reasons similar to yours. You are not the first one to think of them.

I was 11 years old in 1970 when I first heard people talking about the problems of a non-gold based currency and, at the time, restrictions of private ownership of gold and the discontinuation of redeemable silver certificates as currency. I was not "moldy" when these ideas first were presented to me, but young, open-minded, and fresh to the world. Guess where I heard about this? In what now would be called the mainstream media.

Still thinking about the societal compact of money two years later, I told my grade school history teacher that I thought the USA could be brought to its knees by all its debt holders cashing in those bonds in a very short period of time. As an elementary school kid I understood that there is a problem between having paper money/bonds and needing to produce the "real" money at some point in the future. And shortly after that I was going to learn in the real world what inflation could do to the value of paper money....You see, you are not bringing shocking ideas to this forum as far as I can tell. We've heard them; we do discuss them here sometimes.

I think you exaggerate how ignorant people might be even if all the ideas they consume come from that TV which you are uninterested in. Heck, you as a gold seller are even in competition with TV. There are plenty of gold sellers advertising on TV, some of them doing their best to inspire fear of the future and lack of faith in US money. I hear that there has even been a well known Fox employee doing commercials for a gold seller.

Oh, for my part, I found this spring an excellent time to sell some precious metal rather than to buy it.

[Goldenladyfun]

Lose My Number

I have had enough. You have no idea who I am, what I do or what I sell. I have never encountered more ignorant people than people in this forum. I thought this is where serious minded people came to discuss real issues not repeat the same popular crap anyone can find on T.V. I came here to share my experience and talk about what I know. Instead I have been met with negativity, hostility and ignorance. One person even claimed that her answer to inflation was in cash. I can't handle such lack of knowledge and the be lectured by you all. I have feelings too. People joke about coconuts while the very basis of our economy crumbles. Now you want to set me straight too. Do you watch T.V.? Turn it off. As an American living abroad I am embarassed to be from the same country as you. You are right I did not invent gold or discover the fallacy behind our currency. But since this weekend the facts are the American credit rating was downgraded by S&P and gold is already up $50 per ounce while you well informed people sleep. I will no longer be a part of you "forum" and be sure to lose my number.

[Goldenladyfun]

I have had enough. You have no idea who I am, what I do or what I sell. I have never encountered more ignorant people than people in this forum. I thought this is where serious minded people came to discuss real issues not repeat the same popular crap anyone can find on T.V. I came here to share my experience and talk about what I know. Instead I have been met with negativity, hostility and ignorance. One person even claimed that her answer to inflation was in cash. I can't handle such lack of knowledge and the be lectured by you all. I have feelings too. People joke about coconuts while the very basis of our economy crumbles. Now you want to set me straight too. Do you watch T.V.? Turn it off. As an American living abroad I am embarassed to be from the same country as you. You are right I did not invent gold or discover the fallacy behind our currency. But since this weekend the facts are the American credit rating was downgraded by S&P and gold is already up $50 per ounce while you well informed people sleep. I will no longer be a part of you "forum" and be sure to lose my number.

corrections the + then, you = your

[rj.phila]

Goldenladyfun-from my perspective, it seems you went into the thread either looking to bait folks into a debate, or trying to cull some cheerleaders. you got a debate. don't call folks ignorant cause they dont agree with you.

also, another aside-you have said you were leaving like 5 times in this thread, and then came back. why bother with the dramatic exits? interwebz wont allow us to hear you slam the door, so we lose the theatric element. its perfectly acceptable to just stick around and debate, if that's what youre really hoping for.

[photo]

You have no idea who I am, what I do...

That's exactly the point. You waltzed in, not knowing who we are, yet you had a pre-conceived idea to "educate" us (or "wake up the moldy people" -- how ignorantly arrogant of you to make such assumptions). Any successful business person knows that to get a message across, you must know your audience, and you didn't do your homework. We can only go by what you say, and the words you chose did not demonstrate much, if any, real education about finances.

If you sincerely are knowledgeable, then you have a communications problem. Your very first sentence demonstrated that you really have no clue about financial instruments.

You seem to have an obsession about TV. Where did anyone here say that he received his financial information from a television set? You're making straw man arguments (which are against a point that no one made). You can argue against yourself all you want, but arguing against a position no one uttered is rather foolish.

Quite frankly, you aren't anywhere close to as clever as you think you are. Educate yourself on the subject, then engage in conversations that are not immediately pugnacious. Otherwise, you are doing nothing but trolling, which is highly frowned upon in any forum.

[97guns]

paper is looking real strong right now

the stock market wont get propped back up untill there is another QE announcement, QE is the only thing keeping the market afloat.

the gov't must inject money into the market or else the ponzi scheme is up.

[jpg7n16]

I have had enough. You have no idea who I am, what I do or what I sell. I have never encountered more ignorant people than people in this forum. I thought this is where serious minded people came to discuss real issues not repeat the same popular crap anyone can find on T.V. I came here to share my experience and talk about what I know. Instead I have been met with negativity, hostility and ignorance. One person even claimed that her answer to inflation was in cash. I can't handle such lack of knowledge and the be lectured by you all. I have feelings too. People joke about coconuts while the very basis of our economy crumbles. Now you want to set me straight too. Do you watch T.V.? Turn it off. As an American living abroad I am embarassed to be from the same country as you. You are right I did not invent gold or discover the fallacy behind our currency. But since this weekend the facts are the American credit rating was downgraded by S&P and gold is already up $50 per ounce while you well informed people sleep. I will no longer be a part of you "forum" and be sure to lose my number.

Yet you still ignore the reasonable arguments huh?

You say that the Constitution (paper doc) is valid, and says 'coin money' means 'coins' only based on this document. You give a legal verdict to support your opinion.

But then you ignore other legal opinions that clearly state that paper money is a valid form of currency backed by the US government under current law:
Discussion of the legal tender cases of 1870, 1871, and 1884 - Teogatha Law
Julliard v. Greenman --Teogatha Law

Why are some legal verdicts acceptable, and others not? Possibly, because they don't make your argument look as nice?

I would say I'm sorry we don't think exactly like you, and we're not praising you for your wonderful new knowledge - but I'm not sorry. (and it's not wonderful, or new)

I disagree with your premise, I disagree with your argument, and I disagree with the presentation of your argument.

And if you're so into quotes about people who were around before the advent of paper money as a national currency:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
-- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
-- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.

So just because President Andrew Jackson thought paper currency was a bad idea, does not make it so (and it is legal as shown above).

Or if it has to be a quote from a major political figure:

"I took the initiative in creating the internet."
-- Vice President, Al Gore
Inventing the Internet - YouTube

paper is looking real strong right now

the stock market wont get propped back up untill there is another QE announcement, QE is the only thing keeping the market afloat.

the gov't must inject money into the market or else the ponzi scheme is up.

Way to judge a long-term investment based on a short term factor.

Clearly, if the stock market goes down 10% over a few days - then all stocks everywhere are poor investments and are unsuitable for any investor at any time.

So I'm sure you'd also say that if gold/precious metals dropped 10% in a few days it would be a poor investment any time anywhere?

Slight memory refresher from earlier this year - how about just over 3 months ago?

From: Gold Price Falls to $1,550 as Silver Crashes | GoldAlert

May 2, 2011
The price of gold fell following a sudden plunge in silver, which fell nearly 11% overnight to $42.68 per ounce before stabilizing near $45.00 early this morning.

It is very foolish the write off an investment asset category because of the actions of a few days.

I also feel that it it foolish to sell when the market falls and invest in a different asset category which is at an all time high. (namely gold: Gold Price switch to 'all data')


Things happen. Stocks fall. The market goes nuts with fear and sells even though companies are posting higher than expected earnings. (Google - Beat Earnings Expectations) Are people selling because the value of the stocks is truly going down? No. People are selling because they are scared.

Stocks remain the best long term investment out there. For those who are planning for a long term time horizon, stocks are now cheaper to buy.

For those nearing retirement, you shouldn't have your entire portfolio in stocks anyways! You should have a smaller portion, and be less affected by market downturns due to income from bond investments - income that allows you to let your equity portion ride the waves of the market.

[97guns]

i have had my fair share of paper assets, that is how i got to where i am right now but in this current environment i want to be diverged of it 100%. i used it to create wealth and now im in hard assets to protect what my money and i have worked so hard to get where were at.

my main and only concern was to not have to go back to work. retiring at 41 in this environment is no easy task, my allocations are performing beyond expectations and like i said i am worry free.