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money management in stock trading

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  • money management in stock trading

    I have been thinking a lot about things some of you (mostly gambler) have discussed about stock trading and money management. I think it is a system that I should really start to employ, even though I have been able to turn a $1700 IRA balance into $45,000 over a period of a few years. I guess it is rather fortunate that I did not lose the whole amount, because there have been several times where I was "all in" with a particular stock (although never in options until this last trade, and I was not all in for that...but certainly in more than I should have been). In my slight defense, I did pick stocks with very sound fundamentals (large cash reserver, little debt, low pe) and I traded them at times where I felt they were going to go low to high. If I was wrong, I just held the stock, sometimes for many months, until the investment turned positive (now I see many of you covering your face with your palm). For example, a past investment was Exxon at $62 when I just *knew* it couldn't go lower and was due for a run up. It then proceeded to drop below $60 and stayed there for quite awhile. I held it until it hit $66 and sold it, instead of cutting my loss at $59 or whatever. I don't know what you call this type of trading, or if it even has a name? (Haphazard Swing Trading With a Dash of Buy and Hold)

    Anyway, it seems like a better strategy is to employ one of the money management schemes where you establish an amount you are willing to lose (say 2% of your investment capital) and then place a trade with a stop limit such that the maximum loss is only 2%. This makes sense in theory, but with a small amount of money to invest, it seems hard.

    Let me give an example. Say I have 20,000 to invest in a stock. I can accept a loss of 2%, or $400, on my investment. So I buy 200 shares of xyz corp at $100 each and put a stop limit of $98 on my trade. Now if the stock dips below $98, my shares are sold and I am left with $19600. On the other hand, if the shares go up, then I must pick an exit point. If I am to assume that half of my guesses are correct and half are wrong, then I would need to exit at no lower than $102 plus 4x commision fees just to break even on my trading. Obviously I want to let the stock run up a bit, so I pay for my losing trades, commisions on losers and winners, and still make some cash. I guess it is this part where I am fuzzy. Do I base my exit point on a case by case basis or do I say I will always exit a trade at 4% increase, or 8% increase, or maybe I re-adjust my stop loss after the trade has crossed each 4% mark such that I am always guaranteed a winner after 4% runup but can still benefit if a stock continues to run 30% or more. Actually this doesn't sound too bad at all.

    With the limited capital that I am willing to risk with this type of strategy, it will still be a pretty slow way of trading if a stock decides to languish between the stop loss and the exit point for many days. I guess an adendum to my money management strategy would be a way to exit if xx days have past and move on to another stock trade.

    Tips?

  • #2
    First of all, congratulations for your ridiculous returns

    There is something to consider:

    1) We have been in a ridiculously bullish run since Dow 6500... that means that you have to put things in perspective... a Buy n hold strategy where you just average down works great... in this scenario. In flat or down-trending markets, there are no guarantees.

    -as far as your point about 2% losses, yes, you are correct... the smaller the stop loss, the more likely you are to get shaken out. But having a fixed percentage loss prevents your account from getting absolutely decimated on one bad trade... that keeps getting worse... and worse... until you capitulate.

    I do believe that the rise of HFT has taken out lots of technical traders... as the chop and volatility is basically guaranteed to take people out and make them panic at the worst times.

    So... it has to come down to finding stocks that you hopefully have an edge on. Whether that be tech, or biotech, or whatnot, if you have a true edge, then over hundreds of trades it will inexorably show up in your P/L statements.

    The problem, of course, is finding that edge. Then you need to trade enough to be certain that you actually DO have an edge, so you can let trades play themselves out. This is the thesis of Trading in the Zone... which helped me immensely. Of course if you don't have an edge (and can't demonstrate that to yourself) then you won't have the confidence to hold your plays until the outcome.

    g

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    • #3
      I think all of these strategies assumed there is no such thing as an edge, and that the probability of a stock going up or down short term is at best a coin flip.

      I don't think it is *quite* that bad, because I think you can at least know a bit more about certain areas than the average Joe investor. For example, you seem to know bio, and I claim to have some decent tech background. I may have no clue what you mean when you say xyz drug is likely to get rejected because the phase III trial showed blah blah, and you probably don't know what I am talking about when I say zyx company is likely to get bought out because they have perfected a method of eliminating the channel length modulation effects in metal oxide semiconductor transistor circuits.

      The big problem I see with the 2% MM method and the stop limit is what happens when the news is so bad that the stock gaps down so sharply that your limit is passed. This might cause a loss of a LOT more than 2% of your investment funds if you are forced to sell. The only good way I can see to prevent this is to spread your investments, which is really really hard to do when you are starting with a small amount. Even discount broker fees would be too much if you try and split $20K over 10 investments, each with a 2% stop limit. And even if you did this, a move of the entire market down (read QE2 lowball or democrats keeping house) by 2% would trigger all of your stop limits causing you to lose 20% of your investment capital.

      Sigh.

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      • #4
        I think the one big advantage that pharma plays have over tech is that tech depends heavily on the overall markets. Also it moves much more slowly than pharma... drug companies live and die by their drugs... and that is essentially independent of the overall market movement. So, my question to you, is "how much of your gain was due to the market rising from 6500 to 11000?"... That is an absolutely HUGE move.

        However, your gains are absolutely demolishing the best hedgefund out there. So you are doing something right

        But as far as your options bet goes, you had put yourself in a position (had you not sold before earnings) where a bad result could wipe you out by 50%. Trust me, I have been in that situation before. For me, it took me a couple of years to stop going on margin as I trade much more scared when I am leveraged.

        The next thing you have to learn as a trader is that it absolutely does not matter what the TRUTH is... all that matters is what people THINK the TRUTH is... There are many times when I am in bios that are absolutely mispriced, and that is because the big boys (JPM et al) decide that they are going to mislead the retail investor while they get them to give up all their shares... it really is criminal seeing how this goes on, imo.

        Take a look at the negative sentiment in AVNR this past week... Actually, take a look at all the bios that got smashed by the FDA this past month. The sentiment was horrible... and that caused there to be a clear sentiment change against AVNR. People assumed that since the other bios were getting crushed, so would AVNR. Furthermore, AMLN got smashed on possible QT risks... as a result, people thought that AVNR would too. Of course if you looked closely at the data from AVNR I felt they had clearly showed that QT prolongation was not an issue.

        Essentially I figured that markets would smash AVNR down as well (throwing the baby out with the bathwater) even though AVNR had one of the best chances at FDA approval.

        Then, this morning, when VVUS gapped UP, I predicted a sentiment change, as people would think that the FDA was more lenient (in that it gave VVUS a softball CRL). Note that OREX, which is the only of the triumvirate of weight loss drugs (ARNA, VVUS, OREX) left that has a pending FDA decision... well it got beaten down as traders figured that OREX would have more competition sooner (if VVUS resubmits the CRL, it can have Qnexa fairly soon)

        But I figured that the biopharmas would have a reversal of sentiment due to the softball CRL that VVUS got. People would start to think "Ya know, maybe the FDA won't be so hard on AVNR"... and that was the case, until the ridiculous bear raid down to 1.31... Well played shorts... well played. Any stop losses got taken out. And worse yet, remember that a stop loss turns into a market order when triggered. Meaning that if you have a stop loss of 2$, yet there are 1M shares in front of you all smashing through what little bids there are, there is no guarantee that you will find a 2$ bid to fill your sell. Whatever bids are left will be where your market order gets filled. Reading on the Yahoo finance message boards, there was one guy who had a 2.50 stop loss that filled at 2.16. There was a 1.90 stop that filled at 1.50...

        Lesson? Do not have stop losses.... keep mental stop losses, as I do.

        The next issue is when you see the stock tanking (remember that I saw that drop down to ~1.60, so I had lost about 80,000$ in 2 minutes... and I could have panicked, and thought (as many people did) that the FDA had rejected but the news was not out yet. I actually somehow managed to NOT panic, and actually bought 30K more shares at 1.75... Then I had to wait it out until the end of the day. I actually sold 20K of those shares at 2.42 because I would have a heavier position than I wanted in AVNR. So I then had 80K shares, and I had to wait it out. Fortunately it turned out well.

        g

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        • #5
          You know, honestly this isn't really a stock website, and I think the vast majority of these trading posts do not apply to the people here, most of whom invest but do not trade. I occasionally post on hotstockmarket but I have pretty much stopped posting publicly, as I feel like it has taken me a long time to get to this point in trading, and I don't really feel like giving myself more competition by divulging all of my plays and strategies.

          So I will probably stop posting.

          My point was to show that trading is not absolutely impossible as people think. However, I also think that trading is not for most people... it takes literally thousands of hours to become a decent trader, and most people don't have that time.

          Anyway. I now return this messageboard back to it's regularly scheduled programming.

          g

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          • #6
            Thanks for the good reads. I agree with you that it is probably not really worthwhile to keep posting here as basically we are just talking to each other

            I think I will just continue to trade the way I have been with the addition of setting aside a portion of my profits in a "safer" high risk area (such as VGPMX precious metals fund ) and keep a small amount as my play money to continue my tech swing trades. Each year I will dump 10% of my profits from my swing trades into this mutual fund (which will also be in the IRA so tax exempt) and if I ever get in a situation where my investment goes to zero, then I will stop trading and let the fund do it's thing. I'll start it off by putting $32.4K into the fund and keeping the other for my play money.


            /End Thread

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            • #7
              Best of luck trading... I think you are off to an awesome start with ridiculous returns.

              g

              p.s. I still am sorry for getting you to sell your MSFT calls early

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