The Parent Trap

[poundwise]

Mind if I moan a bit? Maybe you can offer some advice. (Or consolation.)

My parents have been terrible with money. They are approaching 60 and have no savings. Several years ago they filed for bankruptcy. Some years after that, they had multiple credit cards (again) with lots of debt (again) and ended up in a debt counseling/repayment plan.

Besides this, my dad left a job a couple of years ago for one that pays about 25% less. As a result, with my mom's medical expenses, they only have about $150 left over after every month, and this would be IF they stayed 'on-budget' which they haven't been.

As a further result, when they have had a large expense, they have needed help. That help has come from my grandfather and from myself and my wife.

I believe strongly that we should help. Family. Honor your father and mother. All that. Believe me.

But at some point this has just become a drain. Money that we scrimp and save (and sell items, and work extra) for sometimes is just gone *poof* because they had some problem and we needed to help them.

I recently visited them (I live in a different state) and talked very frankly about this and their situation. My dad was open to talking about it (which was surprising) and my mom was in favor of it as well. We took a drive a listened to part of Dave Ramsey's audio-book (Total Money Makeover) [no, this is a not a DR topic, just so happens that a simple, straightfoward plan like his suits my parents very well] and then returned to the house.

Upon returning, we sat down and went over their expenses and created a budget (they did not have a written budget previously). Once we allocated income to all the various line items, they will be left with, as I mentioned $150 a month. I helped them open an online MMA and we put a little money in that. If they would accomplish the 'emergency fund' step I would be thrilled.

Anyway, the idea of this trip. The sharing of information. The sitting down and setting a budget. The savings account. The money saving ideas. All of that was designed to be a "teach them to fish" rather than "give them fish" sort of thing. I hope it becomes something worthwhile. I'd love to see them debt free except the house in a few years. They could do it, whether they will or not remains to be seen.

My question for the forum is, at what point do you help and what point do you stop or refuse? Since returning home from that trip, I've received a call from my mother. Some dental work she needed (and which I gave her $600 for, my grandfather having given her $900 previously) is going to cost an additional $700. When she told me this she told me that she had already sold some clothing on consignment for $100. She also said that she didn't want me to send any money. Bottom line though, if I don't, they can't come up with $600. I feel like the fact that they are trying to come up with the money on their own and trying to work a budget should be cause for 'helping' again. At the present time, I am considering sending $400 IF they come up with the other $200 first, by selling items or whatever.

This would accomplish a few things. It would help them. It would get them to help themselves. And it would keep them from being derailed from their budget which they have just begun.

However, I don't spend $400 or $100 or $50 on a whim. I do some work on the side to make even $50 every now and then for my own bills and debt reduction plan. This is why I said helping them is sometimes like a drain.

Anyway, what would you do? Anyone have a similar situation? Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[cschin4]

Re: The Parent Trap

I know we should all help our parents. But, there are many difficult situations that people have to deal with. I will help my mother as well. But, I would not bankrupt my children's future in order to do so. There is a limit to how much help you can give. And, your parents need to make better choices. It is great that they are willing to listen to you and trying to learn. But, as for the dental work. Does it have to be done now? Can it wait awhile? Have they considered going to a dental school to get the work done? A dental school will often do the work at a fraction of the price. Have they looked for a less expensive dentist? Maybe they should just have the teeth pulled if it is going to cost so much. You need to put the ball back in their court instead of letting put the their ball in your court. Pass it back. They need to make the hard decisions, not you. It is their teeth.
Unfortunately, they have choosen this path in life, through no fault of you. Now, they have to bite the bullet and reap the consequences of a life of financial irresponsibility. If they need to sell their home, etc to become solvent then that is what they may need to do. You really cannot afford to uphold to households.

[boefixepa]

Re: The Parent Trap

I've fallen into this trap again and again. Not as badly as you it seems and more with sublings than parents, but my parents know not to ask me for money. I will give all the advice I can. I will help plan, but I will NOT give money. All that gets me is debt. I have siblings that owe me thousands of dollars that I will never see. I don't know why people can't exercise self control, but I'm past the point of sacrificing my stability to help them.

It's not so much about honoring your parents, what about your parents honoring you and your family. Is it right for them to ask for your children/family's security? To me you have gone over and above the call of duty. It's time to say mom, dad, I'm here for you to talk to and consult with, but the bank is closed. You will get no more money from me, end of story. I love you and I will support and help in any way I can other than giving you money. As long as they can guilt you (and that is what they are doing, even if they do it nicely) into giving them money, they WILL NEVER STOP DOING IT! Even if they want to, they won't, because you are always an option! Take the option away and they will be forced to come up with something else.

It will be hard, it may mean distancing yourself from them. They may not like you. But if they aren't will to pick up the rod and fish, what good does it do to teach them? They may stand by your side and even put the worm on the hook, but they are still expecting you to do the fishing.

You can not take away the consequences of their choices! It's like loosing weight, they MUST DO IT THEMSELVES!

[ChimbleySweep]

Re: The Parent Trap

I can't really add more to this; you've gotten some stellar advice. I just want to offer my sympathy. Be kind, but firm is what I would suggest. Your parents shouldn't fault you for not wanting to sacrifice your financial stability to balance out their instability. It may sound harsh for them to hear, but sometimes you have to hit the bottom before you can start working your way back up again.

Good luck to you.

[Bookie]

Re: The Parent Trap

I don't think there's a simple answer to this, and I don't envy anyone who has to make the choice between helping or not, helping to what degree, or helping at what expense. I spent nearly a decade maintaining the household of an elderly family member to alllow her to remain independent. I don't regret the decision, but I'm aware of the long-term cost to my own needs and priorities. If I had it to do over, I would explore alternatives that might have been less burdensome.

Ultimately, what we have here is a financial decision that is emotionally based. Compassion dictates that we help; self-interest counsels prudence. Most of us end up trying to do a balancing act between the two, and it seldom satisfies either.

I sympathize with the dilemma, but I don't have a one-size-fits-all solution. You do what you feel you have to do, draw the line where you must, and live with the decision.

[Tree0164]

Re: The Parent Trap

I don't eveny you and luckily my parents and IL are in a good finanical situation, so I doubt that I would ever be asked. Honestly I don't know what I would do if I were asked.

I think you need to let your mom know that you don't have the cash available right now to assist her out. It is like they depend on you to give them extra money.

[Broken Arrow]

Re: The Parent Trap

All my friends and family, I've always told them one simple thing. I will give and I will take, but I will never borrow or lend. No exceptions.

Obviously, in real life, I can't hold my axiom so absolutely, but I at least try to give people the impression that this is absolute.

It's very important to me that they understand this upfront because, as I'm sure we can all understand, this is a very slippery slope, and once we go down that path, it can be very hard to stop.

I also try to convey to others that money is strictly business, and as any other business, I will manage it with as much savvy as I can, and I too urge them to do the same. (It works especially well on guys because they also want to project an image of a savvy businessman.)

This isn't much advice though, because my parents have been rather financially savvy, and have never needed to ask me for anything. If anything, it's always been the other way around.

Still, if it's any consolation, I do sympathize. It must be a very difficult position to be in.

[Thrifty Ray]

Re: The Parent Trap

Your parents need advice and direction. Whether they know and accept that is the question.

Trying to open their eyes and get them on a budget was a good first step. Is there someone closer who would be willing/able to continue to work with them routinely with the budget?

They have life-long spending habits and attitudes to change. They wont be able to change them overnight (if ever)...but I think this is where they need to start. If they are open to learning, a financial 'coach' would benefit them greatly.

Is their home paid for? Are there any retirment accounts that you dont know about or that they dont remember? Is there any other place where money can be pulled? If so, maybe these are avenues to explore. If not, well...

I completely agree that this has to be YOUR decision for all the reasons already given. Good luck to you!

[Broken Arrow]

Re: The Parent Trap

Also, if I may, I'd like to tackle the subject of honor.

If our friends or family asked us to help them rob a bank, or even kill someone, would you do it? I hope the answer is "No" because it's the wrong thing to do, no matter who asks.

And that's case I'd like to make. I believe we are honorable only through honorable actions, not necessarily through whom we are affiliated with.

Therefore, while I would feel bad telling my parents "no", I would not regret doing such a thing... so long as it is the right thing to do. My parents brought me up, sometimes throught tough love. I may not have understood it at the time, but now that I do, I am much more grateful for it.

[miclason]

Re: The Parent Trap

Just a question...do they really need the money for the dental work, or is that just an excuse? Did they really use the money they got previously towards this, or towards something else? (my mom would call my siblings saying she needed medicine, then used the money for goodies!, that's why I ask)...If they really need it for the dental work, I'd consider helping, but I'd give the money to the dentist directly....

Sorry you-re going through this...I remember how it was with Mom and Dad!

[sweeps]

Re: The Parent Trap

I'm in a similar situation, poundwise. It's a difficult situation because like it or not, it's family and you have to deal with the fear of hurting your own finances vs. the guilt of seeing the other family member(s) barely scraping by. I like the idea of helping those who help themselves. Maybe you can match a certain amount for every dollar they put in their savings? Something along those lines. It may sound weird or too formal or whatever, but it's worked in my situation.

As I've said in other posts, I think this concept is good for public policy too. Handouts don't work over the long term, and just leaving people out in the cold with nothing is no good either. Meeting them halfway is a good compromise. It gives them incentive and a sense of responsibility, and on the other side there's less guilt and a feeling that money isn't being wasted.

[akaivyleaf]

Re: The Parent Trap

I emphathise with you. Its never an easy decision although I think I read in your post where you said your mom had previously gotten money from your grandfather? Am I correct to assume this is her father? Now I don't mean for this to be harsh, but... if she can call up her dad to get the money, she's never going to stop calling you for the money. That is what she's accustomed to doing and if her dad has been honoring her requests she see's nothing inheriently wrong with solicitiation.

Now I can futher imagine this is a tremendous burden on her father, the plight of the aging hasn't gone unchecked, but I would suggest that you talk to him about cutting her off, which might in turn make her come to you more, but when she hears "no" from dad she can't guilt it out if him. She can in turn remind you from whence you've come, but realize thats only because her other source has fizzled. If her father expects some measure of independence from her, she's more likely to listen than the same expectation from her kid.

My parentals (whom I'm not close to at all) sometimes call to get money from me! I laugh, wow it such a refreshing laugh, because they weren't my caretakers or guardians as a child. I feel none of the bonds of parent/child which leads to guilt and there is nothing they can do with me to convince me to loan them money. My other siblings which they did raise, have a much harder time saying no, and often find themselves trapped by perceived duty. In other words its as much necessity as a mind game and you have to cut the cord this time. However gently you do it, for your families sake, I think you must.

[vsjhoc]

Re: The Parent Trap

Poundwise - I think it's amazing that you turned out so financially sensible despite a lack of role models.

[slimcustomer]

Re: The Parent Trap

I wouldn't give them money. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but your comments about believing they could be debt free, but not knowing if they have the will to do it or not would make me hesitate to offer any further financial assitance in this situation. No one likes to see anyone suffer, especially family, but if you continue to help them in this way, you will deprive them of the dignity of being self sufficient. That is the only thing that is likely to break the cycle of financial dependency that they have come to rely upon. If there are other circumstances that prevent them from being able to help themselves, by all means spend all of your time and treasure on them. If you do it for less than that, you may be doing it for the rest of their lives.

As far as solutions, I would see if your mother's dentist offers a payment plan. I would also have them look into account opening bonuses like those found here - $5,370 in free cash from banks for some easy cash. There are also bonuses for opening up credit cards, but with their background I don't know if they'd qualify or if it would be wise. Here' s the link in case it might be of help - Credit Cards that offer cash bonus for applying - $1000 up for grabs

Based on my own family experience, I sympathize with you as you struggle with these often emotionally difficult decisions.

[poundwise]

Re: The Parent Trap


Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. There are so many, I won't try to respond to each of you individually, but I do appreciate every post here. I believe one of the positive things about forums is the ability to get feedback and share ideas and experiences. Thanks.

In this instance, I have determined that this is a genuine need for my mother. I believe that they should have managed their lives and finances better to this point so that they could take care of this themselves, however, they did not. I have, I believe, helped them both find a way to get on track and get motivated to do so. I don't expect an overnight transformation but I do expect to see them be more responsible and start to build some savings.

I believe they are definitely motivated to save an 'emergency fund' and then tackle debt. I don't think they will acquire more debt. Those things are more certain. What is less certain is that they need to learn to live within their means, including saving so as to be prepared for medical, auto, and home maintenance tasks in addition to setting aside money for the future. (Once they are out of debt they are going to open an IRA. At present, they have no savings.) If they can stick to their budget, then they'll be ok, especially once they get rid of debt (except the house) and I hope that they make it to that point in a couple of years.

As for my end, I spoke to both my mother and father yesterday. When I spoke to my mother, we talked about selling things. I told her about one of those drop-off eBay auction sites for a couple of larger items (a set of china for one), we talked about selling some jewelry as scrap gold, and she is supposed to be getting together some books, videos, and the like for me to put up for sale on Half.com for her. IF she pursues this and makes a reasonable and serious effort to acquire funds, and she does get together at least third of what she needs, then we will supply the other part for this expense. This is mainly in order to help them while they are just starting their budget plan. I don't want my efforts in talking to them and helping them recently to be derailed by this added expense so early on. Of course, secondarily, is the simple fact that it is a need and we want to help.

Going forward, I am going to have a much higher expectation for them to be self-sufficient and for them to keep a budget and create some debt relief and savings while taking care of their own expenses, including the 'unexpected' ones. I believe I will set a limit to how much I would even consider helping them (dollar-wise) in the future and I will be very strict and reserved when it comes to helping with money in virtually any case. I will help with ideas, support, and the like, rather than cash. Between my grandfather and my wife and I, we have done the money help thing. We've given them lots of fish. Now we've given them a pole. IF they use the pole and need a fish or two to get by, then we'll do that, but only IF they are using the pole and catching their own for the bulk of the time.

Thanks again for all the thoughts.