Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

[abowers]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

" Through the years, clients and subscribers have spread from the Great Northwest to include every state of the union (except Alabama), Australia, Europe, Asia and Canada. Clients include major automobile manufacturers, banks and lending institutions, Wall Street brokerage firms and consultants. Besides publishing LTR/8+ (America's most quoted source of leasing information), CNW publishes new and used vehicle industry reference guides and study summaries, a monthly Retail Automotive Summary of sales and trends, as well as our online research distribution center, CNW by WEB."

While they list "major automobile manufactureres" as clients, their study does not bash one certain maker. While Prius is made by Toyota, so is the Scion xB (the car with the lowest cost per mile).

[debtfreeme]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

my elantra is .72! but i have almost 104000 miles so i need to be careful for another 100000 or so! no way i can afford to replace my car.

[VJW]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it provides.

Not according to the US Department of Agriculture. They state there is a net energy balance for ethanol production of 1.67. That is, for every one unit of energy used to produce ethanol and its accompanying co-products, 1.67 units of energy results. However, the US Department of Energy reports that petroleum refining actually has a negative energy balance. For every unit of energy expended in gasoline production, only 0.79 units of energy results in the form of gasoline.

Agriculture Dept PDF


Energy Dept PDF

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[catlinye_maker]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

0.79 units of energy as gasoline for every unit consumed, but gasoline production generates a number of other products which are also used as fuel or lubricating products (diesel, etc.). I wonder what the total energy units over all of that is. Not that I'm not all in favor of ethanol/fuel cell/battery powered cars, rather than gasoline powered.

It's just that right now I feel like those consumers faced with a choice between 8-track or cassettes, beta or vhs, or laser disks or dvds, just to name a few emerging technologies. Hate to pick the wrong one; it would be an expensive mistake.

[Haku]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

For now, the easiest answer is to stick with subcompacts. The latest ones are the Honda Fit or the Toyota Yaris, but realistically, I'll probably end up going with a used Toyota Echo....

[stngymama]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Right now I'm not too impressed by what is officially stated by either the USDA or Dept of Energy. They are NOT impartial. If we were dependent on Ethanol, all we would need is one bad season to be in the hole again and dependent on a foreign supplier. Why replace one carbon based fuel with another? Why stop wrecking the environment in one way to go at it in another? Don't get it.

Solar would be ideal, EV works in town, biodiesel is VEEEEEERY cool (and DIY), fuel cells have gotten a LOT of research (even the oil companies are backing research as they envision themselves providing hydrogen at the pump ). Mass transit works in much of Europe......I think there's so much confusion because everyone's been caught flatfooted and we're in panic mode.

Again, hybrids work now: in our used Prius (80K miles) we get 50mpg on the highway, and better in town. Better than the EPA tested, but true -not a promo!

As an additonal , we found on CraigsList that we could, right now, resale our Prius for more than we paid for it.

If $ were really tight, I'd go with what Haku says: a used subcompact, and take care of it!

Just my 2¢

[VJW]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Right now I'm not too impressed by what is officially stated by either the USDA or Dept of Energy. They are NOT impartial.

Even if that were true, there are plenty of other private-sector examples as well, I merely pointed to the official results.

If we were dependent on Ethanol, all we would need is one bad season to be in the hole again and dependent on a foreign supplier.

But that would be unlikely to happen, as you can use such a wide variety of grains in the process. Corn, wheat, milo, soybeans, etc. There’s always some of something in storage, and you could utilize whatever is the least expensive at the time.

Why replace one carbon based fuel with another?

Because it’s renewable ?

Solar would be ideal, EV works in town, biodiesel is VEEEEEERY cool (and DIY)

I’m operating one of my vehicles on Biodiesel.

fuel cells have gotten a LOT of research (even the oil companies are backing research as they envision themselves providing hydrogen at the pump )

Yeah, and the want to utilize fossil fuels to make the hydrogen. Big improvement.

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[stngymama]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

I’m operating one of my vehicles on Biodiesel.

Cool!
For the rest, we obviously have a (slight, believe it or not) difference of opinion. Hopefully there will ultimately be many different practical solutions.

[Haku]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

This is mostly just me thinking out loud, but I too was excited when President Bush first proposed Fuel Cells.

Unfortunately, when I looked into it further, the initiative called for harvesting Hydrogens out of existing fossil fuel. While the process would be easier, and thus, cheaper and also requiring less R&D, it also meant that we would still be dependent on foreign oil not to mention harming the environment.

Only the Europeans have announced that they are researching Hydrogen harvesting from water. Much more research and money will be required to take that route, but if that ever comes to fruition, there's an almost limitless supply that can be had, it would break foreign oil dependence, and it should not produce harmful emission of any kind.

Alas, regardless of which route our governments take, we are still light years away from considering Fuel Cells as a practical alternative. For example, besides the refinement process, our refueling infrastructure (ie. gas stations) would have to be completely replaced. Completely. Oh yeah, our vehicles too.

After all that, I've been inclined to think that the announcement of Fuel Cells was more as a means of politically arm-twisting OPEC to drive the price down rather than proposing a truly viable alternative. President Bush's recent shift to promote Hybrid vehicles and Lithium-Ion battery kits, and away from Fuel Cells, only reinforces my suspicion.

For now, we have to make do with what we have. I'd like to see the mainstream shift towards subcompacts, Hybrids, and Bio-diesel. To clarify my position, I'm not saying that Hybrids aren't any good. Rather, I just wish we can do even better than that. That's all.

[VJW]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Some people have hacked their hybrids and replaced the batteries with larger battery packs, thereby allowing the electric drive to function up to a higher MPH before the gasoline engine kicks in, resulting in about 100 MPG.

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[abowers]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Question: is Biodiesel is only doable in the midwest right now? Due to the cost of shipping it to the east or west coasts.. or it can't be stored for too long, right?

[Haku]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

I haven't researched biodiesel as much as I should, but yes, it is found mostly in the midwest where the crops used to make the fuel is found.

Right now it does cost more to produce, refine, and ship bio-diesel fuel than it is to import foreign oil. However, I recall a radio documentary where a couple had a bio-diesel vehicle, and they used waste grease from local restraunts and McDonalds to run it. Restraunts typically have to pay to dispose of the waste oil, so they were only too happy to give it away. In other words, that couple didn't pay a cent to run their car.

In terms of storage, one of the inherent problems with organic oil is that it will coagulate when the temperature falls far enough. To compensate, people usually add more and more diesel into the mix. As for whether or not it will keep, yeah it can't keep for long, but neither is today's gasoline believe or not.

As for the engine itself, if you are mechanically-inclined or know someone who is, you can reverse-engineer a diesel vehicle to accept bio-diesel. I don't know what is involved; I'll have to find that out. Not very many small diesel cars right now though....

Still, I don't see why most of us in the United States can't own and operate a bio-diesel vehicle. Yes, the blend would be more finicky than gasoline, it could cost more, and access to mainstream is very limited. However, these are not insurmountable problems, and with gasoline prices on the rise, I do think it's high time we work on alternative sources of energy.

[stngymama]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

...... I recall a radio documentary where a couple had a bio-diesel vehicle, and they used waste grease from local restraunts and McDonalds to run it. Restraunts typically have to pay to dispose of the waste oil, so they were only too happy to give it away. In other words, that couple didn't pay a cent to run their car.......

Until you pointed out other forms of biodiesel, I had really only thought of it in terms of the DIY restaurant grease to fuel version; locally that seems to be the popular[only] version available. Our local garbage truck fleet does use it though, but I don't know their source. The common joke is that if you're behind one of these vehicles, you think you're smelling French Fries.
It seems to be a nasty process to do it yourself, but if we end up in a Mad Max kinda world these folks will rule.
I do casually keep my eye out for an old diesel Mercedes for sale, just in case

[starving_student]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Not according to the US Department of Agriculture. They state there is a net energy balance for ethanol production of 1.67. That is, for every one unit of energy used to produce ethanol and its accompanying co-products, 1.67 units of energy results. However, the US Department of Energy reports that petroleum refining actually has a negative energy balance. For every unit of energy expended in gasoline production, only 0.79 units of energy results in the form of gasoline.

Agriculture Dept PDF


Energy Dept PDF

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well they are wrong

[starving_student]

Re: Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

Some people have hacked their hybrids and replaced the batteries with larger battery packs, thereby allowing the electric drive to function up to a higher MPH before the gasoline engine kicks in, resulting in about 100 MPG.

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Do you have more info on that?