Upper and lower middle class

[Nika]

There was a post here before, asking about what rich people behave like.

I wanted to address some differences I generally see between upper middle class and lower middle class. (Not about clothing or manners.)

Instead I would like to share my observation of what I think things that people who are comfortably in middle class do that poorer people do not.

1) Recommended screening and annual appointments.

Dentist and cleaning twice a year, ophthalmologist, dermatologist yearly cancer screening, yearly physical, etc... screenings recommended for your age.
Going when you don't have a problem takes planning and discipline (and good insurance), and often paid time off and a certain degree of flexibility on the part of the employer.

Same approach goes when it comes to children and their recommended appointments and vaccinations.

2). Maintaining Insurance - medical, dental, life, property.
Those often seen as luxury, but can you afford not to have it? (Dental is not a must, because there is a limited exposure to risk, but everything else is hugely important).

All of the above is basically protection, various safeguards to help one remain in the middle class in the face of various crises. Not full-proof, of course, but mitigating risk to some extent.

3) Good fitness and eating habits (you will practically never see an upper west side toddler drinking anything but water on the street, but go to low income neighborhoods and it will be soda or juice.)

4). Long-term planning - investing, retirement accounts, etc...

5). planning and preparing for children (or using birth control).

I think a lot of people don't do these things because it does takes extra effort and they have not grown up in the environment where these things are prioritized, not because they are completely out of reach.
But for many, it could really make a difference between being financially vulnerable or more secure.

I think that perhaps these things define middle class more than the income.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Now give us an example of how to do that on a lower middle class budget. You already showed us in another thread that it can take $1000 a month for three people to eat healthily.

[nimisht]

I think it is possible to accomplish these on a smaller budget but I agree most people don't prioritize very well. Workout and good eating are an absolute must no matter what level of the echelon one belongs to.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I'm sorry for my previous knee-jerk reaction. I need some agreed definition about what is meant by lower middle class in order to respond thoughtfully.

[kork13]

I'm sorry for my previous knee-jerk reaction. I need some agreed definition about what is meant by lower middle class in order to respond thoughtfully.

haha unfortunately, there really isn't one, which I think is exactly what Nika was getting at here... There are no real definite ways to define any particular socio-economic "class" in our society. We simply make observations, and put them into a little box that says "oh, this is the lower-upper-middle class." (that is, the lower end of the upper-middle class)

Centuries ago, your class was defined by your profession. That's no longer the case, and there really are no good ways to positively define where you sit in life. It's a subjective measure that is constantly open to interpretation, which is what Nika just did. The interesting part is that your subjective observation may change based on your own personal status. Someone from a "higher" standing will define the "middle class" as something totally different from someone living in near-poverty. IMHO, trying to define one's station in life is rather meaningless... Is it truly so important to constantly compare oneself to the rest of the world?

[phantom]

3) Good fitness and eating habits (you will practically never see an upper west side toddler drinking anything but water on the street, but go to low income neighborhoods and it will be soda or juice.)

I've got to say that I've never noticed any connection between class and good fitness/eating habits. I went to a public school where the kids came from a pretty wide range of economic backgrounds, at least large enough to encompass lower and upper middle class families. It was pretty much impossible to tell from how well the kids ate and how much the participated in sports whether their families lived in trailers or mini-mansions. Likewise at the company where I work, we have CXOs who are into mountain climbing and sailing and CXOs whom such activity would kill. The same thing is true all the way down the line. We have white collar workers who go to the gym every morning and white collar workers who grab fast food everyday for lunch. We have hourly employees who look like they're in great shape and hourly employees who appear to be far from it.

Of course, I see absolutely nothing wrong with giving a kid juice and very little wrong with occasionally giving a kid pop. So, maybe we're talking about two different measures of what constitutes good fitness and eating habits.

[GrimJack]

There was a post here before, asking about what rich people behave like.

I wanted to address some differences I generally see between upper middle class and lower middle class. (Not about clothing or manners.)

Instead I would like to share my observation of what I think things that people who are comfortably in middle class do that poorer people do not.

1) Recommended screening and annual appointments.

Dentist and cleaning twice a year, ophthalmologist, dermatologist yearly cancer screening, yearly physical, etc... screenings recommended for your age.
Going when you don't have a problem takes planning and discipline (and good insurance), and often paid time off and a certain degree of flexibility on the part of the employer.

Same approach goes when it comes to children and their recommended appointments and vaccinations.

No it does not take planning and discipline (yes it takes good insurance), it takes having a job that allows paid sick leave so that even if you can afford the dental cost, the time off cost take food off the table - no amount of discipline and planning will put food on the table at the minimum wage.

2). Maintaining Insurance - medical, dental, life, property.
Those often seen as luxury, but can you afford not to have it? (Dental is not a must, because there is a limited exposure to risk, but everything else is hugely important).

this is what 'Obamacare is all about' affordable healthcare.

All of the above is basically protection, various safeguards to help one remain in the middle class in the face of various crises. Not full-proof, of course, but mitigating risk to some extent.

3) Good fitness and eating habits (you will practically never see an upper west side toddler drinking anything but water on the street, but go to low income neighborhoods and it will be soda or juice.)

It takes have an actual grocery store with fresh food available - people not on the upper west side don't have the funds to buy bottled water to drink on the streets

4). Long-term planning - investing, retirement accounts, etc...

hunh!?

5). planning and preparing for children (or using birth control).

double 'hunh' what is this about?

I think a lot of people don't do these things because it does takes extra effort and they have not grown up in the environment where these things are prioritized, not because they are completely out of reach.
But for many, it could really make a difference between being financially vulnerable or more secure.

I think that perhaps these things define middle class more than the income.

I think class is more than being about middle class or 'lower' class and income.

I should probably delete this post but I just can't let this post slip past me (unless I am clueless and it was actually a parody - in which case, whoosh went right over my head).

[Blessed]

There was a post here before, asking about what rich people behave like.

I wanted to address some differences I generally see between upper middle class and lower middle class. (Not about clothing or manners.)

Instead I would like to share my observation of what I think things that people who are comfortably in middle class do that poorer people do not.

1) Recommended screening and annual appointments.

Dentist and cleaning twice a year, ophthalmologist, dermatologist yearly cancer screening, yearly physical, etc... screenings recommended for your age.
Going when you don't have a problem takes planning and discipline (and good insurance), and often paid time off and a certain degree of flexibility on the part of the employer.

Same approach goes when it comes to children and their recommended appointments and vaccinations.

2). Maintaining Insurance - medical, dental, life, property.
Those often seen as luxury, but can you afford not to have it? (Dental is not a must, because there is a limited exposure to risk, but everything else is hugely important).

All of the above is basically protection, various safeguards to help one remain in the middle class in the face of various crises. Not full-proof, of course, but mitigating risk to some extent.

3) Good fitness and eating habits (you will practically never see an upper west side toddler drinking anything but water on the street, but go to low income neighborhoods and it will be soda or juice.)

4). Long-term planning - investing, retirement accounts, etc...

5). planning and preparing for children (or using birth control).

I think a lot of people don't do these things because it does takes extra effort and they have not grown up in the environment where these things are prioritized, not because they are completely out of reach.
But for many, it could really make a difference between being financially vulnerable or more secure.

I think that perhaps these things define middle class more than the income.

Color me confused! We did all the same things with less income or more income on the list but two. I have no idea what qualifies as lower or upper middle class btw.

I will admit I had better eating and fitness habits at a lower income because I couldn't afford the food I really liked or driving everywhere I wanted.

Nah we didn't plan for our children but let nature take it's course.

Also my child goes to a school that the vast majority of the kids come from financially very comfortable families. I see no difference in these kids eating habits vs a former distract that had 51% of their kids coming from families that qualified for the free lunch program.

[bjl584]

I don't think this is an issue of class and income so much as it is an issue of personal choice and lifestyle.

You can have all the money in the world and still not make good decisions about hygiene, doctor appointments, and having children.

You can also be living paycheck to paycheck and still keep healthy and eat right.

If you choose to never go to a doctor, eat crap, sit on the couch and play video games, and drink beer and smoke cigarettes, then it really doesn't matter what kind of a job you have, how much you get paid, or where you live. You will be an unhealthy slob either way.

[Gailete]

I think a lot of people don't do these things because it does takes extra effort and they have not grown up in the environment where these things are prioritized, not because they are completely out of reach.

Comments like that make me see red! I'm sorry, but some of us don't have the funds to do those things, period. I grew up poor but we did brush or teeth, eat right etc., but seeing the doctor was an almost unheard of event as there was no insurance and a single mom that was raising 5 of us sure didn't have the money for doctors.

Currently I'm nursing a broken tooth along for around 17 years now. I have had it fixed by filling it twice since I couldn't afford the crown. Now it has completely crumpled and I don't have the funds to go get it pulled or crowned, or whatever they can do. My husband is literally going blind as he needs his corneas replaced. again due to a genetic problem with his eyes. He had them done once when he had insurance about 20 years ago, but we don't have it now. Who would literally go blind if they could afford the probably $30K per eye surgery? Who can get insurance when they have major pre-existing condition.

I know I am not the only person in this type of situation. Please use compassion instead of implying we are some type of lazy red-necks that won't make an effort to take care of ourselves, if we don't go to the dentist every 6 months or get other needed medical work done. I am a disabled RN and know very well the importance of taking care of medical problems and good preventative care. But when there is no money, there is no money--period and it has nothing to do with whether or not you are middle class in attitude, it only is strictly due to whether you have the funds to pay for those things.

[Nika]

I'm sorry you are having such tough time.

Does your husband work? Don't you get medicare or medicaid with your disability?
Insurance that you get through the employer will cover pre-existing condition and they can't not enroll you.
I think one one has a serious medical condition, a job with insurance takes priority over salary, convenience, commute or anything else.

Can new provisions of Obama's healthcare reform help either of you? I googled and found this link:
Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan (PCIP) | HealthCare.gov

Sorry I offended you, but typically when media refers to middle class they are talking about people who are employed and have insurance (it generally takes those two things to hold on to a middle class lifestyle).

I grew up poor but we did brush or teeth, eat right etc., but seeing the doctor was an almost unheard of event as there was no insurance and a single mom that was raising 5 of us sure didn't have the money for doctors.

We were not talking about poor, but these days poor at least have free insurance for kids, I think in almost every state.

Can you sell your stock and fix your tooth? You mentioned you have stock in another post.

[maynard]

I dont agree with opinions of the op

[Gailete]

I'm sorry you are having such tough time.

Does your husband work? Don't you get medicare or medicaid with your disability?
Insurance that you get through the employer will cover pre-existing condition and they can't not enroll you.

My husband is self-employed and after his first cornea transplants his insurnace became totally unaffordable. I am covered under Medicare, but Medicare does not cover dental work or glasses--they don't care if a person can see or chew their food. I'm not sure the healthcare program is actually active in our state at this point, but it costs more than we can currently afford considering the high deductibles and co-pays on top of what we pay monthly all ready. Our yearly medical bills average $8000+/year for the two of us combined (around 33% of our income, in a good year, and our house payment is less than our medical bills). Currently we have a $20K hospital bill already hanging over our head from him being hospitalized this summer for a heart condition. What little bit (and it is a very little bit) I have been able to squirrel away in a stock is for a rainy (Hurricane Sandy style) day, not for dental work. I'm more scared of losing the roof over our heads and the medicine we need to live on than losing a tooth. Medicaid seems to only cover those that don't work. When we tried to apply this summer for the hospital bill, instead of looking at our business both income and outgo, surprise, surprise they would only look at the income, per their regulations they can't deduct the expenses as then "people who make $100K a year but with $90K in expenses for the buisness would be eligible for Medicaid" and that would never do (no we do not bring in $100K, that was their comment). It appears that it is reserved exclusively for people that have never done a days work in their life or those that breed babies like rabbits. Middle aged people like us that have already struggled through 10 years of disability on my part, generally don't have any resources left but becuase we made wise decisions when we could, we own a house so then we are considered to have too many assets. I have supported myself since I was 17 and now 40 years later still try to make ends meet.

I think one one has a serious medical condition, a job with insurance takes priority over salary, convenience, commute or anything else.

No when one has a serious medical condition, they find that the job that offered them insurance and other benefits is not something they can do any longer. I can barely drive 15 miles into our nearest city without total exhaustion and pain, my hubby can barely see, what kind of commute or job can you think of for either one of us? I'm sorry but you are totally out of touch with the realities of life and poor health.

Sorry I offended you, but typically when media refers to middle class they are talking about people who are employed and have insurance (it generally takes those two things to hold on to a middle class lifestyle).

I have never in my mind equated income AND insurance as the definition of a middle class life. I have never heard anyone say that before you either. I have been to this board, when I could, over many years now and I have noticed that it has been 'taken' over by high middle class people that can talk about paying for kids college with no sweat, lovely vacations to go ski and what a great deal they got for that vacation, paying for kids cars and private schools. The past few months coming here, I have been appalled that those that need help and advice are just assumed to not handling their finances correctly and if they would the roubles would all disappear. Sure you can ask folks for what their budget is and what they have coming in, but the truth is when people are broke, they are broke. Those that have never even had to try getting help from the government have no idea of the soul discouraging process it is, since to be lower middle class means you don't quality for any help, while yet you WANT to care for yourself you can't and so you fall through the cracks. 4 times this year I have had to go through the equivilant of doing our taxes, making copies of paperwork, spending hours of time and energy I didn't really have begging for help with our medical bills. So far the result is a big fat zero. While you are so excited about how much work you put in to earn yourself a spectacular skiing vacation, I probably put in 4 times that amount and have nothing to show for it only less paper in the printer and the ink cartridge lower. Please remember on your trip to tip the staff well as their lives are far different than your own.

Oh and I will say this before I am told to cancel them and then I would have money for what we need, since it is generally assumed on this board. We do not have a cell phone, cable, netflix, don't go out to movies, bowling or out anywhere other than the grocery store and the doctor, I can't rememer the last time we went out for dinner, our only vacation in 10 years was a weekend away to our son's wedding, I'm wearing the same winter coat that I got 11 years ago, I'm wearing the same shoes that my son gave me 10 years ago. Yes, around 10 years ago my life as I knew it stopped. I went into work in the morning and by 11AM I was so sick and in so much pain I had to go home. I never was able to return. My nice middle class job with benefits disappeared and the fight was on to get SSDI. Maybe that is why I still consider myself middle class. Up to 10 years ago I WAS middle class and had the middle class attitude of working hard and taking care of our needs.

I am not trying to be rude to you or think you shouldn't get your great trip, I think that is swell, but please be considerate that those of us that would like to preserve a bit of dignity in our lives, we have lost so much already, don't take the notion that we aren't middle class unless we have the benefits YOU believe make up the middle class. Middle class by the way is a huge expanse of people in a huge continuum of incomes. Your description of middle class made it sound like if we didn't have what you thought we should have we, that we didn't have it because we were basically stupid, lazy and uncaring. Not only am I smart, I am the hardest worker you would have ever seen. I speak for all those that read this forum that are scared to speak up. I don't care what class I fall into, but I don't want to be perceived as being lazy and ignorant and I'm sure there are a whole bunch of other readers that don't want to be perceived that way as well. Can't you imagine?--oops I can't afford insurance, boy I must be lazy and dumb! Couldn't buy all those fresh veggies and bottled water at the store today, I must really be lazy and dumb. etc. None of this computes because you made broad generalizations that have no basis in FACT.

[Nika]

Could you husband get a better job if he got his surgery?

I think you are missing the point I've tried to make several times about how vulnerable middle class is, and how easy it is to be pushed out of it by medical disaster, and that people that understand it and are able to afford it (I acknowledged that both of those are necessary) are doing everything they can to protect themselves.

It is not always enough. With great planning one can protect oneself from being ruined by a minor or a temporary setback, but a catastrophic illness can put any average family out of the middle class.

Insurance is one of the dams that slows down that surge. Each dam is of different quality and height.

I had a major problem with my twin pregnancy. It was a terrifying and heartbreaking experience and only due to the most advanced level of medical care being available in NYC and access to those medical centers and highly specialized doctors and technology my surviving son is healthy today. I added up medical bills - they were over 90K. I was amazed, surprised and grateful, but insurance paid EVERYTHING. It cost us about $100-200 in copays, and I had 4 fetal echos, fetal MRI and a surgery in my second trimester, and dopplers every few days. So I know the importance of good insurance. Access to top level medical care can sometimes make a difference between life and death for someone you love. That is why I put it so high on the list of priorities. If we did not have it, we would be deeply in debt right now, or, what's even worse, may not gotten the care we needed in time. When you are told that your gently kicking baby will most likely have a stroke within a week and might die or have severe brain damage before he is even born, you go into surgery and you don't ask the price because it does not change the outcome of your decision. I did not know at the time if I would be in debt of how much insurance will pay.

I would have done the same if it was only his eye at risk and it would cost me 30k I did not have.

[LuckyRobin]

I think this adjustable graph does a pretty good job in showing where people fit in on the social class scale, including the lower middle class, the middle of the middle class, and the upper middle class:

Graphic: How Class Works - New York Times

It bases it on your occupation, your education, your income, and your wealth. It lets you choose from drop down lists in each category and then charts where you are based on that. I felt like it was spot on for my family. So if you're curious on how it's graded this seems like a good place to find out.