Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

[nanamom]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

I homeschooled my first two and intend to do it again. My philosophy was teach them to read (after or while instilling a love for it) and get out of the way! They took off. If something doesn't look interesting enough to them (like fraction) make it fun. We "studies" fractions by making cookies. Somehow the recipe always had to be doubled or tripled or halfed or quartered or... I think they turned out well and are well educated.

[VJW]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

Well then if the current system sucks, why not change it

Where’s the evidence that “the current system sucks” ?

* High school completion rates (at roughly 90 percent in 2000) and college graduation rates, are the HIGHEST IN HISTORY.

* One in four adult Americans has at least a bachelor's degree -- the highest percentage IN THE WORLD (and the percentage keeps getting higher).

* A larger percentage of twenty-two-year-olds receive degrees in math, science, or engineering in the United States than in any of our nation's major economic competitors.

Therefore, where we are willing to spend the money and resources, we can and do have the best public schools IN THE WORLD.

#

[nanamom]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

Current system. Well, I was an education major in college as was my sister. I know of several people who changed majors after first semester because they felt it was an easier field than the one they had selected. What kind of teachers did they make? I knew several teachers who told me they went into education because they got the summer off and didn't work a full day. I had a teacher tell me preschoolers don't learn anything anyway so she figured she could teach them. I just had a young man graduate high school with honors. He watched Mrs. Doubtfire in class because the teacher liked the movie and wasn't prepared to teach. Another teacher screened the students she let into her advanced class. If she felt she would have to help them they didn't get in. Aren't teachers supposed to help students? Another teacher told me she wasn't concerned if they learned the material because she felt it wasn't important and they needed to learn to work together instead. I would have preferred in addition. One spent so much time in class analyzing the kids and trying to be there for them that she never seemed to teach. I went to conferences and was told oh these are just for the kids that are flunking. When I pushed for news of how he was doing they told me he would be OK. I don't want OK! The list goes on! When DS1 was in grade school a teacher told him he wasn't allowed to tell his friend that 2 minus 3 was less than zero. He had worked it out on his own and came to us for confirmation. We explained negative numbers and he went to his teacher who said if he told anyone she would say he was wrong. I started home schooling shortly after that.

[sweeps]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

nanamom, you're going to find anecdotal horror stories from people in every profession. How many teachers do kids see over their school career? Dozens. The one or two bad apples get canceled out by the excellent teachers out there. In the case of homeschooling, if the parent is not such a good teacher, that child never gets a chance to learn from another teacher -- that is what scares me.

Have you ever in your homeschooling -- just for an hour or two -- let your kids do something non-educational because frankly you were just too tired? I thought so. Show me anyone from any profession that hasn't "zoned out" for an hour or a day or a week.

[jmjj215]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

VJW, I do worry that a bachelor's degree isn't too much to show these days. Even the MBA (no offense Sweeps!) appears to be losing its edge we've seen earlier. I think it's great we're getting so many people educated (and that we're still producing tons of thinkers - not just China) - just kind of wondering where the differentiation will be next - hopefully with skills instead of just a degree.

[PrincessPerky]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

VJW, you offer a list of papers, wonderful looks great on umm ahem...paper (or computer screens) I want REAL education, while you can find horror stories in all proffessions (including parenting, and including homeschooling) there are very few proffessions where those horror stories are compounded by the built in system.

Our schools are based on a theory that all children will learn the same thing at about the same age, while many can be forced to do so, this is not a universal concept, and it is not the best way. It is a conssession made to be able to suffer the vast numbers of children.

Our schools are based on a theory of 'spoon feeding' and testing, looks great on paper, our kids on average pass tests, yipee. But then MOST people spend another 4 to 8 years leanrning something useful for thier proffession (or just for the paper anyway). How many years do we need of the same things!!!! (apparently 12plus)

Now there are exceptions, there are even exceptional teachers, but they are 'bucking the system' not succeding due to it.

I am not in favor of Zero education, I am simply against mass education as the norm and age based education period.

[sweeps]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

Here's a timely article...
Poll: Adults Scoff at Homework Gripes

[VJW]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

VJW, I do worry that a bachelor's degree isn't too much to show these days. Even the MBA (no offense Sweeps!) appears to be losing its edge we've seen earlier. I think it's great we're getting so many people educated (and that we're still producing tons of thinkers - not just China) - just kind of wondering where the differentiation will be next - hopefully with skills instead of just a degree.

Generally speaking, degrees in math, science, and engineering normally do indicate an increased skill set.

#

[VJW]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

VJW, you offer a list of papers, wonderful looks great on umm ahem...paper (or computer screens) I want REAL education, while you can find horror stories in all proffessions (including parenting, and including homeschooling) there are very few proffessions where those horror stories are compounded by the built in system.

A) Teachers unions do not hire teachers, do not train teachers, do not determine which textbooks are to be utilized, do not determine the curricula, do not determine the homework policy, do not determine the pass/fail requirements, and do not determine disciplinary policies. Local school boards do.

B) According to polling conducted by the Gallup Organization, there is an enormous gap between what Americans' perceive as the quality of the public schools their own children attend and the quality of schools across the nation. While 52 percent of parents said their own children's schools deserved grades of A or B, only 16 percent of parents gave such a grade to public schools generally. The gap is attributed to a negative campaign against public schools. When the question was narrowed even further, to ask about the particular school that a parent's oldest child attended, 62 percent said the school earned an A or B.

Our schools are based on a theory of 'spoon feeding' and testing, looks great on paper, our kids on average pass tests, yipee.

That is something that was instituted after 2000 and has been a dismal failure, which I predict will be scrapped when the Republican Majority recedes.

#

[PrincessPerky]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

Umm I graduated before 2000 and my classes were spoon fed! (I went to higfschool after being homeschooled)

It is not 'new'.

School boards follow the system, as do teachers. Personally when I taught in school I had a great deal to say about how I taught and what curriculumn I used, very cool since I could ditch what didn't work for my class and get more of what did, though I was still limited in many ways.

(btw the program I ditched for not working with my k-5ers I later used with ds and will most likely use with DD, so it was a case of not meshing, not lousy curriculum)

And I have often found that parents feel 'their school' is awesome, it is the rest that fail. Meanwhile ALL mass age based education is failing to some degree. some a great deal, others less.

and out of curiosity who would admit to sending their child to a lousy school? not many. If they admited to themselves the failings they would be trying to get out or fix them.

[VJW]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

Umm I graduated before 2000 and my classes were spoon fed! (I went to higfschool after being homeschooled)

What you described:

“Our schools are based on a theory of 'spoon feeding' and testing, looks great on paper, our kids on average pass tests, yipee.”

is the heart of the failed “No Child Left Behind” program, which simply teaches to the tests.

#

[PrincessPerky]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

Ok so then we agree no child left behind is yet anoyther in a long line of programs to perpetuate a system that at heart is failing. ANd cannot do anything but fail to educate.

In fact many argue that the system is designed not to educate but to subjugate.

I have not decided myself yet on the goals of state although I think it is an effective system to subjegate .

[VJW]

Re: Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

No.

I agree the ‘No Child Left Behind’ mandate is failing, but the underlying “heart” of the system, as you put it, is better than ever and more successful than ever. The small percentage of the system that is not working suffers from not receiving equivalent funding because the students are either poor, non-White, or both.

#