Cutting Out Recreational Sports

[Scanner]

I have been requested to attend a town meeting this month where they are trying to save little league baseball.

Now, I know out of our budget we do pay fees to sign up our kids. What those fees cover (umpires, uniforms) and what they don't (field maintenance - that's the Dept. of Parks and Recreation, I think), I am not sure.

Our middle school entirely cut out all sports. Our kids will be unprepared for any and all high school organized sports. I have told them if they do organize, as a statement, they should take the field with a richer township and just sit down on the field and forfeit. Let the opposing coach jump up and down hopping mad.

As a taxpayor paying taxes and a parent paying for sports and getting the benefit of sports, I see both sides of this issue. It was automatically assumed I'd just show up with my kid in a baseball uniform at the meeting as a political statement, as an outraged parent.

All that being said. . .what I would be concerned about as a taxpayor is my property values further declining if it's parks and recreation starts to fall into disarray and they are abandoned.

What say the forum? I know Maat55 thinks government should only maintain an army and a common currency. Well, since my township has no plans to invade Canada or start a South Jersey Deutchmark. . .I'll ignore that radical philosophical position. I'd like to hear the more moderate positions out there.

Where would you sit on this issue as a line item in your budget/semi-political issue?

[bjl584]

If your township is anything like mine, then they are probably hemorrhaging money all over the place. If the books are completely opened there is probably more than enough money for little league and for maintence of the field.

Maybe one less guy standing around smoking a cigarette watching another guy dig a hole?

Maybe one less crosswalk installed on an intersection that doesn't even have sidewalks leading up to it?

You get the idea.

[Scanner]

From what I have been hearing, the fields have been voluntarily maintained. . .which actually is fine.

I can picture my father, 74 years old, getting a kick out of riding a tractor around. I agree. . .where is the money going.

Ironically, we have one of the highest taxes in our county also. . .and some of the worst fields. Years ago, the mayor was found guilty of embezzlement from the sports fund.

Nice.

[MonkeyMama]

There are no school sports in our neighborhood. The non-profit organizations are dirt cheap to join and not lacking for members. Meanwhile, the competition is pretty fierce at the 7-8yo level. These people take their sports very seriously. I have heard six-figure incomed parents complain about the $100 sign up fee. At this age, there is little other cost, but appropriate shoes and such.

For me, it's the music. I am really bummed the kids won't learn several instruments, and have the opportunity to practice EVERY DAY at school. But, I have been looking around and see non-profits swooping in and trying to fill that hole. Like sports, there are other options. Just not quite as convenient.

My stories re: parks and rec?

A summer day camp that cost 47 cent an hours (that's 20 hours per week daycare for 47 cents an hour. In a higher cost city). It was shut down this year. A neighbor e-mailed some city council member and she found funding for the program in less than a day. I thought it was kind of ironic because had heard about this summer camp from all my upper-middle class neighbors. Council person cited statistics or whatever, making the program worthy. MEanwhile, everyone I know utilizing the program does not work, and does not need daycare. I actually signed both my kids up since the drop-in daycare price would be unbelievable, and figured I'd better get my tax dollars worth. Program worthy of city money? Most definitely not. I sure hope some low income families are taking advantage. I'd like to see those statistics...

As a funny aside, I take a dirt cheap city aerobics class several times a week. We have classes very early every Saturday at the parks and rec center. With the economy they have cut hours and offerings, etc. But my instructor has always had access for Saturday. I've been going for YEARS. City takes percentage of fees paid for classes. We don't need the electricity (enough natural light), but the air is always COLD in summer and WARM in winter - the thermostat is set 24/7 very comfortably, obviously. We pretty much just use the shelter, and don't touch any lights, thermostats, etc. So, one day about 2 years ago some neighbor walks in and starts yelling at us how we aren't supposed to be there. Meanwhile, we are bringing in income for their overhead. She said she'd complain to the city. The city at least had the sense to keep that income rolling in (if she really bothered to complain?). I could easily see them enforcing "no classes after hours," which really makes no financial sense in cases like this. The city has cancelled our classes on evenings while letting us still come on Saturdays.

[Scanner]

It's more of a complex issue than meets the eye - "pay to play", which is what this is all about.

I just talked to a patient of mine, who is running for election and she is being very ethical, refusing to politicize it. She told me (and I gasped in horror at this) that it cost the taxpayor 19K last year to just run the lights on teh baseball field.

While I can be a Progressive on public works being for the public good, my other Progressive mindset of energy conservation has to override this. Frankly, I am ashamed as a parent to know that we are out there burning that much oil to simply play a silly antiquated game that really produces no athletic prowess anyway.

That being said, this sweeping reform is affecting soccer and other sports as well.

The reason this becomes complex is other districts with more money get to have sports ( and music). So. . .when our kids go to play them in 9th grade, they are at a serious disadvantage (well, the poor are always are over the rich, nothing new - could be dangerous with contact sports though).

I told them they should schedule a game and just not show up.

Honestly, I think the same thing should happen in major league baseball. When the Yankees come to town with their high paid players, the other teams like the Cleveland Indians, the fans just shouldn't show up. The empty stands should send a message. Honestly, Freak the Yankees and the Horse they rode in on.

Let all of the sports scores be "Rich: 93: Poor: Forfeit" and see how it pans out.

[MonkeyMama]

The reason this becomes complex is other districts with more money get to have sports ( and music). So. . .when our kids go to play them in 9th grade, they are at a serious disadvantage (well, the poor are always are over the rich, nothing new - could be dangerous with contact sports though).

I think that nails it on the head. IT all comes down to money, most definitely. Money, power, education. IT's more than just money.

By odd circumstances we live in a wealthy and powerful neighborhood. The school district is unsalvageable (was here long before the money and power came). So, parents here fill in the gaps with non-profit sports teams, charter schools, etc. Which means we will continue to have low cost opportunities while the school districts and city/state governments struggle. These kids will not be sports disadvantaged, by any means.

The poorer neighborhoods don't have the fraction of the education or resources to overcome the same budget cuts. They don't have money and they don't have the TIME.

Having grown up ho-hum middle class, our experience here has been very eye opening. As everyone struggles with the economy, I don't feel like my kids have MORE opportunities. But, I do see a lot of resourceful people with time on their hands doing extraordinary things for the community.

& sometimes I do see someone asking for dirt cheap summer camp and getting it, immediately. I can only deduce *that* has everything to do with money.

[frugalgirl]

In order to save and improve our sports programs (baseball and soccer to be precise), the parents in our township organized baseball and soccer associations to supplement the financing from the parks and recreation department. When so many parents became involved, this ended up politicizing the parks issue to more people and the parks became more of a priority to the whole town. Our town is not rich. It is made up of a mix of college-educated and blue-collar solid middle class families. Lots of people wanting the best for the kids and willing to volunteer lots of time to make it happen. If you care about how it works in my town, you can read the details below. Personally, I think that when money is tight, people have to be willing to put in time and think creatively about what they can do to help their towns. It has worked for our town.


The township I live in has a couple of baseball fields that are located in the township park, a couple at the local elementary schools, and a two-field complex owned, run, and paid for by the parents as part of a private baseball association (I'll call that the BA for short). My town is of moderate financial resources but is rather big - population is 23,000. The BA is responsible solely for the two-field complex that it owns and runs. The BA is responsible for the maintenance of the infields at the other fields. The school fields are nothing more than your basic school field and are only used for the youngest kids. The BA pays for the umpires, the lime, and equipment for the kids. The kids don't have umpires until the 9-10 year old age group. Before then, the parents umpire the games. The umpires for the older kids are also kids 2-4 years older than the kids playing on the field. These kids get $20 per game.

The source of funds are three-fold:
1) Sign-up fees. These are around $70 for the first kid and $50 for the next child. There is a $200 maximum per family. When you sign up your child, you recieve raffles tickets for a 50/50 drawing that you can sell to recoup your fee(s). Or, you can just not sell them and write your own name and enter the drawing yourself. This is great for those that don't want to sell them AND for those that struggle to pay the fees.
2) There is a huge fundraiser about 30 days after the start of spring pracices. It is a "night at the races" where they sell horses, etc. The tickets to go are about $25 per couple. There is basic food and a cash bar. Each coach asks his/her team to prepare a raffle basket with about $5 contributions from each parent. Usually one of the moms collects the money and makes up the basket. These are raffled off. The coaches also encourage the parents to come so they can all get to know each other, etc. It works pretty well.
3) The BA owns and runs the concession stands at the games. There is a separate Concession Stand Board of the BA that maintains (clean, paint, etc.), stocks, and sets up the schedule to man the stands. The concession stands make a ton of money for the BA. Each team is assigned nights where they are responsible for manning the stand. The coach assigns parents from his/her team to work the schedule for his team so every parent gets a turn. Each team also has one parent that is qualified to "open" and "close" the stand (basically, they know how to turn on the fryers/lights/etc. and know how to clean up and turn everything off.) This is a very efficient method.

Each spring there is a field day where all the parents go out to the BA-owned fields and do all the work that is needed to get the fields up and running for that year. The parents make all of this possible. Almost all the work is volunteer.

I like how this is done. Every parent is involved somehow.

The BA was formed years ago when the Parks and Rec department was unable to build/maintain adequate fields for the kids. The parents organized the whole thing and it has been working well all these years later. We do have towns around us that have nicer complexes because they have more money. Ours kids are competitive with all towns around us. In fact, our 12 year olds made it to the Little League World Series regional final two years ago. It was very exciting!

The fields are used mostly during the daylight hours. The BA has a rule that, on school nights, for kids 12 and under that no new innings can be started after 8 pm. The games start on weeknights at 6. This probably reduces the amount of time the lights are used.

[Scanner]

I like the horses fund raiser.

Maybe I could take bets on sports down at Atlantic City.

DisneySteve could be our bookie.

[maat55]

I have been requested to attend a town meeting this month where they are trying to save little league baseball.

Now, I know out of our budget we do pay fees to sign up our kids. What those fees cover (umpires, uniforms) and what they don't (field maintenance - that's the Dept. of Parks and Recreation, I think), I am not sure.

Our middle school entirely cut out all sports. Our kids will be unprepared for any and all high school organized sports. I have told them if they do organize, as a statement, they should take the field with a richer township and just sit down on the field and forfeit. Let the opposing coach jump up and down hopping mad.

As a taxpayor paying taxes and a parent paying for sports and getting the benefit of sports, I see both sides of this issue. It was automatically assumed I'd just show up with my kid in a baseball uniform at the meeting as a political statement, as an outraged parent.

All that being said. . .what I would be concerned about as a taxpayor is my property values further declining if it's parks and recreation starts to fall into disarray and they are abandoned.

What say the forum? I know Maat55 thinks government should only maintain an army and a common currency. Well, since my township has no plans to invade Canada or start a South Jersey Deutchmark. . .I'll ignore that radical philosophical position. I'd like to hear the more moderate positions out there.

Where would you sit on this issue as a line item in your budget/semi-political issue?

What's the matter Scanner, you not have the time to form a private league? Did Congress come down and form your leagues before?

[maat55]

BTW, I am not anti-government, I am anti-unconstitutional, big federal government. Local governments answer to you.If you are concerned with your property values, by all means petition your local authorities.

[mcfroggin]

Our middle school entirely cut out all sports. Our kids will be unprepared for any and all high school organized sports.

As a taxpayor paying taxes and a parent paying for sports and getting the benefit of sports, I see both sides of this issue. It was automatically assumed I'd just show up with my kid in a baseball uniform at the meeting as a political statement, as an outraged parent.

All that being said. . .what I would be concerned about as a taxpayor is my property values further declining if it's parks and recreation starts to fall into disarray and they are abandoned.

You are concerned about property values if parks and recreation doesn't maintain fields? You have much more to worry about. Maybe its different where you live, but your value is likely already way down. I would refuse to live in a district without middle school sports. A lack of middle school sports means a lack of healthy exercise for children, higher crime rates, more drug use, and increased teen pregnancy.

Numerous studies show that athletics helps with everything I mentioned above. There are many kids that only try in school to be eligible for sports.

My district is adding new sports to get more kids involved, and we are already seeing positive results.

There are many things your township should cut first besides sports. I'd be outraged.

[cschin4]

Communities that start taking this line need to think. The only way to grow your community is to keep it appealing to young families looking to establish their lives. If communities don't offer decent playgrounds, activities, etc then they are not going to have the appeal. These kinds of things have intangible benefits of helping bond the community, etc. So, on paper, it might make "sense" but it is often pennywise pound foolish. Our community is dying for lack of investment in youth. And a local town is thriving with new playground, community pool, skateboard park, etc. Our town is now looking pretty sad.

[Scanner]

Well, I am mixing up two issues.

ISSUE 1: State Issue.

Governor Chris Christie cut out funding for school sports as part of an effort to balance the state budget. So, unless you refuse to live in a whole state, you are forced to, if you want that, to go private or live in a very rich district that can afford to subsidize through taxes.

Gov. Chris Christie plans to cut N.J. school aid by $800M | NJ.com

I pretty much live and work in a middle class town.

My son has not had any middle school sports for his entire tenure there. He goes to high school next year.

Gov. Christie's maneuver was recently overturned in State Supreme Court as Unconstitutional. It appears you can't just say, "Well, we aren't funding poor districts" if there is a state mandate saying all schools should have funds to operate programs. Christie's only defense was, "Well, throwing money at schools doesn't solve anything."

That's about the worst straw man argument I have ever heard from a Conservative. . .yeah, well, that's kind of a platitude. . .throwing money at a school doesn't solve anything. . .well, neitehr does yanking it.

ISSUE 2: Local Issue

See above - should the local taxpayor be on the hook for funding night baseball and soccer games, field maintenance, and so forth? How important is Parks and Recreation to property values? I honestly don't know the answer to that.

All in all, what this has meant for our kids is essentially no organized sports, or very piecemeal.

And I get it. . .I am a taxpayor too. . .sacrifices must be made.

What I don't have patience for though is when the Rich aren't made to sacrifice along with the middle class and poor. Christie has gone to extraordinary lengths to insulate them from economic realities on the Bizarre Republican Tenant that "Well, the rich give jobs."

So, if they end up giving 100 jobs at $7.25/hour, that's considered progress to Conservatives.

Okay. . .little Johnny doesn't get to play baseball. I get it. But you turn around and give a tax break to the rich?

No, that's not hte way it should work. It should work like Clinton did it - you tax the rich and cut spending on the poor or whatever (Welfare reform). You make reform across the board. Everyone sacrifices.

Lopsided economic reforms don't make sense.

Finally, look at the man - you can tell he hasn't played that many sports in his day.

Now, all of this being said, I do think there is a compromise in there somewhere - maybe Sat. Afternoon leagues. Maybe just basic fitness programs by a group of personal trainers.

Honestly, if I were a high school coach, I'd rather have a team of good, fast runners for my baseball, soccer, or football team (raw athletics) vs. a bunch of kids who've "played the game." You can teach the game. Often, you can teach self-disipline and give physical prowess. Ask any basketball coach. . .want a scrappy 5'8" kid or a kid who is 6'3" and a little awkward? Sorry to say the coach is going to go for heighth. It's too much of an advantage. The same with speed.

Maybe our district/town could have reacted with a program that kept up general physical fitness rather than just giving up on sports.

Running and calesthenics are free after all. Not too fun for middle school kids I guess though.

[mcfroggin]

Then maybe taxes should be raised or maybe institute a fee to play. Sports is not something you can eliminate.

Cutting costs is understandable, but where does it end? Is it ok to close all schools? No. It should be the same for sports at the middle/high school level. Sports teach teamwork, leadership, enhance health, keep kids off the streets/away from drugs, provides scholarships to college, etc.

[shanecurran]

Honestly, I think the same thing should happen in major league baseball. When the Yankees come to town with their high paid players, the other teams like the Cleveland Indians, the fans just shouldn't show up. The empty stands should send a message. Honestly, Freak the Yankees and the Horse they rode in on.

I don't understand the point of this?