Minimum wage, good or bad?

[brandondrury]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Yes.

Just because VJW says something or writes it down in forum, certainly doesn't make it a fact. I'd love to discuss and debate the issues but it's hard to do that when a person open refuses to back up their claims with anything resembling evidence. Obviously, VJW is convinced of his views, but it's a little selfish of him to hide all that information (which form the bases of those views) to himself. It makes me wonder if his views were formed from real numbers or just human emotion.

Brandon

[CRFSaver]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Actually Enron's pension was a traditional 401K plan with one of the investment options being the company's equity. Now, much of the company match in the program was with Enron stock but employees were not required to keep that stock (especially if they had a selling plan in place) until the last 6 months of the disaster.

I used to work with a few people that came from Enron. They were just fine as they did not invest all (or any at all) of their 401K money in the company' equity but instead used the traditional mutual fund programs that were set up. Only the people who had all their investments in the company's equity were the ones that got screwed. It was an investment choice for the participants.

Now the CEO was promoting the stock left and right which was fraudulent yet people were not required to use that investment option. My last company had that same option to invest in the companies equity as well as my current employer. That doesnt mean I am required to invest in that (I dont). So the question of who put all their eggs in one basket was a valid one.

A guy at my former employer used to put 100% of his 401K in the company stock. When the company had problems he got smacked hard, and when it recovered he made out like a bandit. That guy who put 100% of his money in the company stock took a risk and lost. I am not saying 1 bit that Enron wasn't fraudulent or in the wrong but the guy who lost his 401K money can thank himself just as much as the company for his loss.

I actually wish they would outlaw allowing company stock as an investment option for 401K plans. I can see doing the match in it and allowing it as a benefit (payroll deduction to purchase equity) but a 401K shoudl be diversified away from the fact that a majority of your income already comes from one source, your job.

[CRFSaver]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

I am all for a minimum wage. The question becomes when does that minimum wage get so high that it starts to affect the number of jobs available? At what point does it make more sense for the company to ship those jobs overseas? What about a minimum wage thats lower for those under 18 or under 20? What about raising the minimum wage for companies that make a certain income or over a certain size? Just little things I think about that I don't have the answer to.

[cercis]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

I found some links to tide you over until VJW has a chance:

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_viewpoints_minimum_wage_maximizing

http://www.policyalmanac.org/economic/archive/minimum_wage02.shtml

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/14/celebrate-christmas-by-raising-the-minimum-wage/

http://www.ncpa.org/bothside/krt/krt042399a.html

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Mar/29/op/op08p.html

http://www.iir.berkeley.edu/research/ab48.pdf

Now, I kept these to US articles. I saw several more about the positive impacts in England.

[CRFSaver]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Thanks. Any articles that say the opposite? I like to compare and contrast.

[cercis]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

CRF, I couldn't find any that were well written. I'll look again later to see if I can find a couple that actually mention facts rather than "I'm sure this is what will happen, simple logice tells you it MUST be what happens". In the meantime, I searched google using "minimum wage and the economy".

C

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

There are no substantiated studies that indicate the opposite.

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[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Just because VJW says something or writes it down in forum, certainly doesn't make it a fact. I'd love to discuss and debate the issues but it's hard to do that when a person open refuses to back up their claims with anything resembling evidence. Obviously, VJW is convinced of his views, but it's a little selfish of him to hide all that information (which form the bases of those views) to himself.

Again, I document more of my posts than anyone I’ve seen post here.

Try reading.

And if you object to my merely responding that your posts are hooey, then try posting something other than unsubstantiated beliefs.

It makes me wonder if his views were formed from real numbers or just human emotion.

You're the one posting from emotions and beliefs.

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[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Actually Enron's pension was a traditional 401K plan with one of the investment options being the company's equity.

Just one of the first results from Google:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1753448.stm

“Enron workers found themselves over-exposed to Enron stock because the company matched employee contributions to pension plans with Enron stock.”

AND

“In addition, employees also chose to invest their own pension money in Enron stock.”

Of course, this was at the urging of their own CEO, Ken Lay. He and others in management were encouraging their employees to purchase additional stock at the same time they were all selling.

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[Bruce Wayne]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Amazing how many replies this thread has generated. There is an interesting anecdote for this situation currently playing out in British politics. The conservative party have recently announced a new leader and are setting out their policies for the future. They are looking to move less from the right and more into the middle ground of politics.

One of the first thing they've done is release an advert in a national newspaper stating that they are looking to hurt big business. It's easy political capital to say how bad big business is. It can't be good or right to make money can it?

An easy vote winner is to suggest that the public are at threat. Bush is doing it with terrorism. Many more do it with business. Create a bogeyman that the public need protecting from and they'll vote for you in spades.

[brandondrury]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

I don't understand the hatred for "big business". While visions of some fat cat driving his Ferrari may not be ideal, nearly every product I by is from a big business.

I always find it especially ironic when people use a computer to speak how they hate big business. I've never met a person who assembled a microprocessor or motherboard out of twigs and berries in his back yard to create what is known as a computer. It takes millions and millions and millions of dollars invested in R&D to develop the computers that eventually sell for $300 a Best Buy. Who has the resources to such a thing (besides big business)?

It's sad that politicians can use terrorism or big business to get votes. That's the fatal flaw of democracy. The majority wins and the majority doesn't have a clue.

Brandon

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Hmmmmmmm.

Didn’t notice anyone posting about “It can't be good or right to make money” or a “hatred for ‘big business’ “.

Looks like you two are up to your usual Straw Man arguments.

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[jmjj215]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Actually Enron's pension was a traditional 401K plan with one of the investment options being the company's equity. Now, much of the company match in the program was with Enron stock but employees were not required to keep that stock (especially if they had a selling plan in place) until the last 6 months of the disaster.

I used to work with a few people that came from Enron. They were just fine as they did not invest all (or any at all) of their 401K money in the company' equity but instead used the traditional mutual fund programs that were set up. Only the people who had all their investments in the company's equity were the ones that got screwed. It was an investment choice for the participants.

Now the CEO was promoting the stock left and right which was fraudulent yet people were not required to use that investment option. My last company had that same option to invest in the companies equity as well as my current employer. That doesnt mean I am required to invest in that (I dont). So the question of who put all their eggs in one basket was a valid one.

A guy at my former employer used to put 100% of his 401K in the company stock. When the company had problems he got smacked hard, and when it recovered he made out like a bandit. That guy who put 100% of his money in the company stock took a risk and lost. I am not saying 1 bit that Enron wasn't fraudulent or in the wrong but the guy who lost his 401K money can thank himself just as much as the company for his loss.

I actually wish they would outlaw allowing company stock as an investment option for 401K plans. I can see doing the match in it and allowing it as a benefit (payroll deduction to purchase equity) but a 401K shoudl be diversified away from the fact that a majority of your income already comes from one source, your job.

All very good points CRF - great post.

[jmjj215]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

“In addition, employees also chose to invest their own pension money in Enron stock.”

Of course, this was at the urging of their own CEO, Ken Lay. He and others in management were encouraging their employees to purchase additional stock at the same time they were all selling.

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In my view the pie can be sliced both ways. The employees should have used a bit of basic investing strategy and diversified, and of course the CEO is a total crook.

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

The bottom line is that employees of ENRON could ONLY get a matching deposit into their pension plan if they took ENRON stock. No "basic investing strategy" would have helped, as their pension holdings were FAR, FAR, larger than any partial 401K assets.

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