please help me.

[mama25]

hello, I'm new here and I need third party advice for a situation I am in. Little info- we are expecting baby #5 in the fall. I stay home with my kids, and dh works in a commission only position. 2-3 yrs ago, he was earning a good amount. We were able to afford most of the things that we trully cannot afford now. Never enough to save, but enough to live on.

FYI- I might rant a lot- but I honestly have no one to talk to about this.

Now- his income has dropped. Substantially. There are a handful of items that I feel we need to do to get out of this funk. First off- and the biggest thorn in my side... he has a leased car that he writes off at the end of the year for business. This is $1,000 payment per month. ITs a high end car. Last time I approached this subject of getting rid of it, he said he needs to "keep up appearances" to his collegues because all the big earners in the company drive high end cars.
One slight problem...we are not BIG earners. Haven't been for a while, in fact we have exausted our ability to borrow from anyone anywhere, are behind in almost every bill, facing power and basic services shut-off, and we have 4 kids who need to eat, to which I am rationing our food every meal.
I was suprised that he chooses to put on an appearance, rather than consider his family's welfare. Now when I did attempt to talk to him about it, he was incredibly defensive. Saying I think he's a failure (which I never said- nor thought) that he is letting us down.
Now it's not just the car, our mortgage is modified temporarily due to lack of income, (something I have spent countless hours working on) But once the modification ends, we will no longer be able to afford our mortgage. Once we were making $10k a month. now its averaging $4k.
Here is the problem, he is still living like we are making 10k a month. I say "He" because I spend nothing. I pay the bills, well those that I can, and I buy nothing ourside of our basic LIFE needs. All extra money goes to food. Nothing is saved. No bills are being paid off, in fact, his lease could be possibly repo'ed within the next 2 months. I look at our budget and see that if we pay the lease, we are negative in the account. Meaning no food. NONE.
Now because he works comm. his income can change, it can get better. We've seen it before, and I believe in him and his abilities. I do not think he is a failure, or think less of him in any way. I love him unconditionally. However, This mentality of living like a high earner, is a fascade. It isn't reality and sooner than later, reality is going to give him a swift kick in the pants, I know it. When I talk like this to him, he is convinced I think he is a bum or a loser. I don't think that at all. Ever.
There are so many other things that he does, buys, spends that make me cringe, but when I try to say anything, he gets so angry with me and I wind up crying, feeling worthless and frustrated. What's worse, is his mother thinks it's me forcing him to spend, to live in a big home, drive a fancy car! I fought him with each purchase knowing that we needed to think about the future not the present. I didn't ask for this big house, which is next to impossible to take care of. I used to hire a cleaning lady, but once he felt the financial squeeze, (he knows on some level we are broke) I lost that help. I can't hire a sitter to watch the kids while I try to clean.
I would love to go work- but who would hire a preggy mom to 4?I'll work from home! do phone sex if possible! I don't care anymore! I am willing to do anything- walk away from everything, the house, cars, cellphone, cable, sell everything, my clothing, my blood- just so I don't have to look into my babies faces and say, no, to a second helping of a meal. I am beyond emotion now- I am so very ready to stop the cycle. I have Dave ramsey's book- and am ready after reading the intro-
What can I do about my dh? I can't leave him, where would I go? And I love him, my babies need their daddy, but it's not out of the realm of possiblility.
help me please.

[dczech09]

I think he needs to come back to earth and realize there is no reason to buy such nice things (like the fancy car) if you cannot afford it. What has this car done for his image? Has he signed larger clients? I'm assuming not. So it really isn't helping unless the money brought in from it exceeds the cost.

You may need to get a job as well. The biggest thing though, talk to him and discuss everything openly. You two need to be a team. Until that happens, then there is no advice that I could give you that will work.

[wincrasher]

You are in a tough spot.

But it's not all on your husband - you are partly to blame for keep popping out kids. You need to find a way to work together to adjust to your "new" normal. Who's to blame for how you got there is really irrelevant at this point.

When you are in sales, it's really easy to fall into the trap your husband did. Keeping up appearances is part of their game. You want to look successful so people think you are and want to do business from you. That's all old thinking in this economy. The new thinking is how to bring value to your customers and getting an edge that way. Flashy is old-think. Clean and neat is new think.

Sounds like downsizing is in your future - by choice or by force. It's ALWAYS better to do it by choice. Instead of dictating specific changes, maybe try just asking your husband for his new business plan - how is he going to "right-size" your budget.

Good Luck to you!

[jIM_Ohio]

You don't list specific expenses... it costs money to make money... If the car is "written off" you are getting the money back 100% in taxes or other... so you need to be very specific on several issues (read my signature).

1) List your income. 4k of income per month is significant. You can make this work, but please list all income sources, including tax return.

2) List all expenses. If you are going thru 48k per year/4k per month, please itemize what you are spending every month.
I agree a 1k car payment on 4k income is bad on the surface, but if 12k is written off in taxes, you should be getting it all back (either income in #1 is 12k higher or expenses here are 12k lower... list in both places so its feasible to see where money goes)

3) List all debts. Mortgage, car, credit cards. List both current details of payments, and any future modifications or re-sets.


Each of above (#1-#2-#3) have different solutions. Keep the solution of 1 independant of the other items... for example if you have a second job for more income, it would not change expenses (drastically) if done right... and adding more income does not change how you attack the debt either... so list each seperately and clearly, and let the numbers do some of the talking.


My wife has a job where she travels close to 75% of the time (same day travel). There are days she is 100 miles from home and comes back same day- really puts miles on the car. She drives an accord, and has car seats in the back... but no client is ever in her car. If your DH has clients in his car, be specific about how the car is used as well.

[mama25]

Thank you for your responses.

Jim-
No one rides in his car, but other salesmen.
His income is the only one coming in. It is partially salary (commission % from people who work for him) plus 1099 for his own business.
The car is added into taxes, but our return was only $9k this year- he earned ttl 25k 1099, and $122k salary. Its addition did in crease our return, but I am not sure what impact it had.
budget:
mortgage $2,589.32 *resets to 4800 in 1 mo.
auto 1 $209.95
auto 2 lease $872.87
ttl $3,672.14
Debt
Who Monthly
cc1 $140.00
cc2 $200.00
bank loc $40.00
cc3 $130.00
car tax $185.06
cc4 $50.00
loc $266.00
ttl $1,011.06
Medical
Who Monthly
lab $20.00
dr 1 $30.00
dr 2 $30.00
dr 3 $50.00
eye $40.00
ttl $170.00
Household
Who Monthly
lawn $180.00
pest $60.00
Diapers $60.00
auto gas $200.00
trash $30.00
power $400.00
school $11.00
Auto Ins $185.50
Home ins $129.00
Cellphone $170.00
Groceries $1,000.00
cab/tv/net $170.00
medicine $200.00
Oil $400.00
proptaxes $719.54
Auto Tax $30.00
ttl $3,945.04
so- on an average, with commission constantly changing- some months he earns enough to catch up, some months, he brings home $600.00. So our monthly nut is about $8700.00. Since Jan 2010- his average is $4k per month. Needless to say- past due on lots of bills. We save when big money comes in- only to pay out the next month. Nothing every stays in the bank.
As I look at the expenses, I think- how the hell did we pay these making so little, the tax return paid one month, last years income carried over to cover another month.

I guess I need someone else to look at this and give me their take- what am I doing wrong? what can I change?Am I really in a bad place? or on the verge of it? if so, how to I come back from the edge?

I know chunking out the kids takes 2. God forgive me, but I was done with 4. He is beside himself with joy because of the new baby, me not so much...simply because of this situation.

yes- I know I said $1k for lease, but the actual amount is $872- not much difference to me- being emotional an all about it.

[jpg7n16]

Soooo say he completely got rid of the car and walked everywhere. You'd still be way in the hole, right?

The main issue is the income. The car is minor compared to that, but it is out of line. Could easily cut that in half. (What happened to your car? "Oh I got rid of it. This new one saves me $600 a month. Speaking of which, our company would like to save you some money too! What are you presently doing with ____ ?) Helps sales!

The groceries seems a bit high. And if his salary isn't going to go back up, you may need to find a cheaper house. Can't really afford to pay $4800 a month for a home when you make $4800 a month total. That just won't work.

[mama25]

Soooo say he completely got rid of the car and walked everywhere. You'd still be way in the hole, right?

The main issue is the income. The car is minor compared to that, but it is out of line. Could easily cut that in half. (What happened to your car? "Oh I got rid of it. This new one saves me $600 a month. Speaking of which, our company would like to save you some money too! What are you presently doing with ____ ?) Helps sales!

The groceries seems a bit high. And if his salary isn't going to go back up, you may need to find a cheaper house. Can't really afford to pay $4800 a month for a home when you make $4800 a month total. That just won't work.

we used to be able to afford the house, not anymore.
yes- the car really is minor- it wouldn't make things that much easier-maybe I am just envious.
Groceries are high- would like to spend $100.00 per week.

[BlackDiamond]

You are in a tough spot.

But it's not all on your husband - you are partly to blame for keep popping out kids. You need to find a way to work together to adjust to your "new" normal. Who's to blame for how you got there is really irrelevant at this point.

When you are in sales, it's really easy to fall into the trap your husband did. Keeping up appearances is part of their game. You want to look successful so people think you are and want to do business from you. That's all old thinking in this economy. The new thinking is how to bring value to your customers and getting an edge that way. Flashy is old-think. Clean and neat is new think.

Sounds like downsizing is in your future - by choice or by force. It's ALWAYS better to do it by choice. Instead of dictating specific changes, maybe try just asking your husband for his new business plan - how is he going to "right-size" your budget.

Good Luck to you!

Yup. I actually posted a rant on another message board today asking why people who KNOW they have finance problems continue to have kids. Kids are a want, a luxury. The first thing that jumped out at me about the OP was that she is on baby #5 even though they are aware that they are not high earners. But what's done is done. Buy the kids used clothes while they are still growing and don't buy them every new toy that comes out.

OP, you and your husband need to have a long chat. I don't believe for a second that a person would be denied a good position at work because they drive a sensible car instead of a luxury car.

Why does it cost you that much to tend to your lawn? You don't work so learn how to maintain the lawn yourself. Why on earth is your cell phone and cable bill so high? Why do you pay tax on a car every month?

[BlackDiamond]

we used to be able to afford the house, not anymore.
yes- the car really is minor- it wouldn't make things that much easier-maybe I am just envious.
Groceries are high- would like to spend $100.00 per week.

Would buying in bulk and freezing help with groceries? That might be a good idea.

As for OP getting a job, depending on the age of the kids, that might not work if they will need daycare.

[mama25]

my kids are all 7 and under. so day care is out of the question.
I shop ONLY consignment for me and the kids, or look for friends who have old kid clothes. Nothing new.
The lawn care is $45.00 per week. we have no mower.
car tax- I estimated that per month, but its paid once a year- most of the big items that would be paid annually, or quarterly have been stretched out so I can set aside that much each month.
I would be willing to work nights, weekends, from home, anything.
Cellphone is high and so is cable because of where we live. We have the most basic of basic services- but we have 2 lines with the cell- 2 yr contract, and would be fined a big fee even if we dropped 1 line. The cable is a bundle.
thanks again for the posts.

[Elisabeth]

Work at home opportunities. Try tamonastips.com. She lists companies looking for at home phone and computer workers. You have to have reliable internet access and certain kinds of computers, but many of the companies are recognizable. Take a look. Tomona does not charge for the information, she just puts it out there. I find it interesting, but I have steady employment so just interesting.

Think about selling items of value on craigslist or ebay. Quite a few savingadvice bloggers do this. It would be a way to get money without a job.

Saving money on groceries, I would recommend you use Couponmom.com and afullcup.com and slickdeals.net. All of these sites are free. When using Slickdeals.net, go to forum rest your cursor until menu pops up and click on drugstores and grocery B&M. There is about 6 pages to choose from. Not all stores will apply to you. For grocery I find it best to look at the first page for sale/coupon matches and then go to the last and scroll back 5-6 pages. I also like savingaddiction.com. There are others but I don't want to overwhelm you. $100 a week is entirely possible. As you learn to save keep the difference between the $1000 and $400. Use it as an emergency/emergency fund. Women used to keep egg money. This is your egg money. Us it to pay off dr debt but not fantasy living (expensive houses, cars, clothes). Retire@50 in the blogs (here at Savingadvice) lists the prices/coupons/deals she does. She is a good example of possibilities. She donates hundreds of items she buys for less than $20 a month to her local food pantry. You can do it too.

Ignore unhelpful comments by those about how many children you have. These same folks should be focusing on helping in the now not commenting on the past. Children are a blessing and a motivation. Hold onto that thought.

Lawn and pest care need to be (should be) cancelled. If you have a contract, call and be honest. Tell them and write them. Write down who you talk to. Explain your situation, you don't want them to perform a service you can't pay for.

Cable/tv/net 170 seems high. Cancel HBO/CINMX/etc, DVR, and get basic. Use the library for free movies, tv shows, books etc. As a very special treat (you find a $1 in the sofa cushions) rent from redbox. Even redbox and blockbuster (box) have free rental codes. Call the service provider for your cable/tv/net and negotiate a lower rate. Start a family game night. Start a family read aloud night.

Power bill. $400 Way to much. Phantom electricity is a bill killer. Except when your spouse is home turn off and unplug the tv's vcr's gameboxes microwave lights should be shut off unless you are in the room using them. Cell phones should not be left charging overnight. You can cut $50-250 off your bill depending on your electric use. My son spent a month in Germany as an exchange student and my bill when down 75%. It can be done. Make it a game with points for the kids. They can earn tv/game time ect.

Try to renegotiate your car and home insurance. I saved $600yr (about 40%) by switching to a different company. Do not cancel your present insurance until you are accepted and have paid for the new insurance and you are positive of ongoing service.

Some things may take care of themselves, car repo and house repo. It will be painful to start over again fresh. Easy for me to say and impossibly hard for you to live through.

I suggest an action plan. Get on craigslist and check out the cost of rentals. Plan on a 3br. Just keep an avg cost in your mind. Avoid a large yard as maintenance with 5 children will be alot for you unless your oldest is old enough to cut the grass. No committment, just info.

Although I believe in paying debts and being responsible, if I had 5 children in your situation, I might not pay on my mortgage/property taxes and save enough money to start over again (1st and last months rent, utility turn on, moving expenses, ect). Keep paying the electric because they won't turn on your new electric until the old is paid.

Last I would tell you to pray. I especially like the prayer from AA. "God give me the grace/strength/courage to accept the things I cannot change, the grace/strength/courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." I don't belong to AA so I feel free to modify it as I please.

[Elisabeth]

OOPs I see you addressed some of my suggestions at 8pm. I hope you find something helpful in my post.

[Thrif-t]

mama25, 1k for groceries with 4 children under 7...wow...i have 3 children 10,12,14 and believe me they eat like horses and I average $650/mo...I keep trying to get it down but dang they keep eating me out of house and home. Do you cook? If not learn. Usually junk food and soda's add a lot to a food bill. I cook nightly meals from scratch and bake from scratch one day a week. Food can be expensive but when my kids were little I could easily spend $300/mo. I see this as a place to save that I can comment about. I wish you luck. I know sometimes spouses can be stubborn and it's hard when you're not both on the same page Good luck with your new baby too. I'm 4 of 5 and big families are great, you'll get thru this.

[mama25]

thank you.

thank you for your wonderful tips-
the groceries are a tough spot for us. We shop at a second hand grocery store-they take the overstock from the higher priced stores and mark them down. That helps a great deal.
The other thing is - our diet is Paleo. Meat, veggies, fruit, and nuts/seeds. We've been on this for 1.5 yrs.
We eat no grain,no dairy, bread, starch, etc- mainly because one of my kids was diagnosed as pre-diabetic (but this stopped it) *long story*, we have lots of intollerances, too, weight issues, etc.
Eating fresh foods and meats, no matter where it comes from is soooo expensive. There are no coupons for the produce isle or the butcher. There is nothing processed, prepackaged, artifical in our home. Hopefully if we can stay here, we can get our veggie garden growing again like last year- that sustained us into the winter.
I think what we will start to do is a spreadsheet of the grocery bill- and find out what it is that costs so much. We don't need to eat meat every day, but they do need their protein.
We NEVER eat out, ever ever- mainly because of the gluten in most processed foods. Dh is a cook, and we do bulk cooking on the weekends.
I appreciate all the comments, even the ones about the kids- I can't change what I have done, only what I can do in the future and I know how it looks, 5 kids and broke.
I also believe we will pull through this...Buddha said in order to have anything, you must lose everything. I'm not a Buddhist, but can understand this idea of reevaluating what really matters. My kids matter and I will pull my weight, help my husband in any way I can, and be sure we have what we need, the wants will wait.

[zetta]

The other thing is - our diet is Paleo. Meat, veggies, fruit, and nuts/seeds. We've been on this for 1.5 yrs.
We eat no grain,no dairy, bread, starch, etc- mainly because one of my kids was diagnosed as pre-diabetic (but this stopped it) *long story*, we have lots of intollerances, too, weight issues, etc.
Eating fresh foods and meats, no matter where it comes from is soooo expensive. There are no coupons for the produce isle or the butcher. There is nothing processed, prepackaged, artifical in our home. Hopefully if we can stay here, we can get our veggie garden growing again like last year- that sustained us into the winter.
I think what we will start to do is a spreadsheet of the grocery bill- and find out what it is that costs so much. We don't need to eat meat every day, but they do need their protein.

I'd be fascinated to see a typical weekly menu and the spreadsheet of your grocery menu. One thing that comes to mind is to use frozen produce where possible -- it's cheaper than fresh and just as nutritious. Canned produce packed in water or its own juices might be another option. Can you eat beans on your diet? How about brown rice and other whole grains for the family members who don't have the tolerance issues?

What does your DH propose to do about the situation?