i don't get so many people

[cschin4]

If it is so bad in Detroit, why don't people leave?

I think some people simply do not have the means to leave. If they have a home they can't sell, costs of moving, etc may just not be feasible. If you are renting and can pack up and go, then I don't know why they dont'. But, then again, where to go? Where are the jobs? I would guess most places are better than Detroit, but where can one go if the are unskilled or no degree and earn a living wage?

[cptacek]

Ok. I guess they are stuck there then. There is absolutely no possiblity of moving out of the city once you are there, so the rest of us are going to have to provide their food, clothes, cell phones, cable, houses and transportation. I mean, it is totally hopeless, right? What do we expect them to do?

/sarc

I have just been commenting on you guys' comments, but I finally read the article. I have just a few problems with the reporting...

Hunger is a symptom, like a fever that comes with the flu. The causes are countless. Unemployment. Underemployment. Drug abuse. Mental illness. Credit card problems. Health problems. Just bad luck.

The fact that this is a single mom with three kids is probably the major cause. Where is the father? Why isn't he with them and providing for his family? Why isn't he paying child support? Why is she letting him get away with not paying child support?

"I already bought them their coats, so I told them that's part of their Christmas," Cristodero said as she started to cry. "One or two presents. I told them, when I get my tax money, I'll buy them whatever they want."

1. Stop giving uncle sam a free loan every paycheck and pay your bills with that.
2. A coat is a good Christmas present. If you are so poor you can't afford food, you probably shouldn't be promising them they can have anything they want when you get your tax money. I remember lean Christmases where we got an orange in the stocking and jeans for the present. And that was it.
1a. Oh, I forgot about the EITC. She probably gets money back that isn't actually coming out of her check. Regardless, that should not be promised for presents either.

After the first person, I actually liked the rest of the article. Two people who have gotten off drugs (way to go) a person volunteering (way to go) and a person who is using the food bank but will do his darndest to not have to in the future (way to go).

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I am glad that we provide safety nets. Really I am. I think besides what it does for individuals in need, it helps us to have a safer, more stable society.

That said, I do agree with cptacek's points 1, 1a, and 2, plus the comment regarding the father's child support. There are a lot of people who lack what I consider common sense and we need to find ways to educate them. As it is, the woman in the article would have to go against the grain and the usual societal expectations in order to implement those points 1, 1a, and 2. A lot of messages get given her to do as she is in that such is what so many (most?) other people do. We need to find ways to send other messages to people. We need messages about proper prioritizing, frugality, and showing our children we love them in ways other than showering them with gifts we cannot afford without missing the full rent or electric payments.

I was just talking with my DH the other day about winter gear. In our memories we did not get new coats, sweaters, hats, and gloves every year. We wore the same for 3 years or so. Then I, who was finished growing by age 11, wore the same coat all the way from 6th grade through high school. It seems like everyone now expects a new coat for their children every year. I really think a lot of people, including people living with public assistance throw away their children's winter things every year. (Can that be true?) Of course, winter stuff is not generally made so well an any more, but still, one should be able to stretch the budget some years by re-using what one already has. Buy the coat large in the first place, then wash and mend it, for goodness sakes. This thought came to me again when reading in the article about the new coats being part of the Christmas presents.

[disneysteve]

The fact that this is a single mom with three kids is probably the major cause. Where is the father? Why isn't he with them and providing for his family? Why isn't he paying child support? Why is she letting him get away with not paying child support?

Perhaps the father's situation isn't any better. I saw someone recently who is stuck in that trap. He is separated from his wife. The wife got a restraining order against him claiming abuse (I don't know if it is true or not). So he can't live in their home. He has poor credit due to an prior divorce and bankruptcy so he can't rent an apartment (even if he could afford to). He is court-ordered to pay child support in an amount that was determined based on his income at the time but his job has since cut his hours and, thus, his income. Doesn't matter. He is still expected to pay his full child support. In the meantime, he is homeless, bouncing from one friend's sofa to another and sometimes literally sleeping on the street. And he also has custody of his son from his first marriage.

What exactly is he supposed to do?

It is easy to say the father should pay child support but you need to know the whole story. If the father is unemployed or otherwise unable to pay, there isn't much he can magically do to come up with that money, especially in an area of high unemployment.

[disneysteve]

I really think a lot of people, including people living with public assistance throw away their children's winter things every year. (Can that be true?) Of course, winter stuff is not generally made so well an any more, but still, one should be able to stretch the budget some years by re-using what one already has.

I think there is some truth to that. I also think a lot of people get caught up in fashion and marketing trends. I see that with backpacks all the time. Kids want (and parents buy) a backpack for some movie or cartoon character. A year later, the kid doesn't want to be seen with that one anymore and it was probably cheap and didn't hold up anyway. So they buy another. If they would buy one well-built backpack instead, it would last throughout all their schooling. We finally bought our daughter an L.L. Bean backpack a few years ago and I expect that it will get her though high school and beyond. We did return it once because a strap broke but they have a lifetime guarantee and replaced it for free. Heck, I still have the Jansport backpack that I've had since high school. Used it all through college and med school and traveled with it many times. The zipper broke a while ago and I mailed it to Jansport because they also have a lifetime warranty. I got a note last week that it is being repaired and will be back to me soon.

Clothing is a little harder, especially depending on number, age, sex and size of your kids. We only have one kid and she grew non-stop. We often had to replace her clothing mid-season because it didn't fit anymore. We got some stuff at thrift shops but that is hit or miss and they didn't always have what we needed when we needed it, so I can understand that to some extent. She has never worn the same coat 2 years in a row. Same for boots and snow pants. They just don't fit for that long.

[PrincessPerky]

I was just talking with my DH the other day about winter gear. In our memories we did not get new coats, sweaters, hats, and gloves every year. We wore the same for 3 years or so. Then I, who was finished growing by age 11, wore the same coat all the way from 6th grade through high school. It seems like everyone now expects a new coat for their children every year. I really think a lot of people, including people living with public assistance throw away their children's winter things every year. (Can that be true?) Of course, winter stuff is not generally made so well an any more, but still, one should be able to stretch the budget some years by re-using what one already has. Buy the coat large in the first place, then wash and mend it, for goodness sakes. This thought came to me again when reading in the article about the new coats being part of the Christmas presents.

Ditto on the coats, my kids wear theirs till they outgrow them..and then they are passed on to the next kid. I only buy new for my oldest and occasionally my oldest girl (she seems to prefer girly coats...)

Education is the single most needed item in this country, folk have no common sense and no house skills. We call em educated when they can pass highschool with no thought or concern to the truly important aspects of life. (bills, anti consumerism, cooking, taking care of your stuff, etc)

I will also ditto the idea that giving meals/food would be far more useful than money, kinda hard to turn a loaf of bread into oreos.

BTW, 3 years ago my monthly food budget for a family of 5 (two adults-no free meals from PS-all big eaters) was 450, we did fine. Currently with 4 kids we could easily get approved for 950 a month in food stamps...I don't spend 950 a month on food and I buy whole wheat/fresh fruit and 'real' milk among other expensive habits (I still rarely coupon)

[disneysteve]

Education is the single most needed item in this country, folk have no common sense and no house skills.

This is very true and even moreso in poorer areas where even basic education (math, reading) suffer. Even in the good neighborhoods, though, it is a problem. They spend so damn much time teaching the kids to take the state tests so they get their funding that they don't have time to actually teach anything useful. I wish they would do away with all of the standardized tests and let the teachers actually teach.

[asmom]

Off topic:I wonder if food prices vary a lot due to location.

To answer your question, the answer is: YES. Not only does food cost more but gas, rent, insurance, and utilities are more expensive in poor areas. It's funny because people are always complaining about poor people and all the while they have more choices and lower prices in nicer neighborhoods. I cannot tell you how many times I have coasted home back to the 'burbs trying to get to the cheaper gasoline prices because it is so much more expensive in the poorer neighborhoods and I never stop at the grocery stores there because it simply costs more.

There is grocery store about 4 miles from my house that replaced a national chain store. I can't remember the name of it but it's supposed to be some sort of discount grocery. One day I took a list of prices I'd made of my most common food items up there to see if I really would save money. The first thing I found that the food was packaged differently. So yes, the prices were less but I usually got less for the money. There were far fewer choices. And this was the kicker: there was a 5% "surcharge" on the total groceries, I forget the reasoning. So I spent a little less on my groceries but once you added in the "surcharge", it actually cost me more for less food! Needless to say, I returned to shopping at Kroger and Publix.

[GREENBACK]

One "dirty little secret" about stores in poor neighborhoods charging more is that they do this to recover loses from shoplifting. It's a fact and it happens far more in poor areas.

[asmom]

One "dirty little secret" about stores in poor neighborhoods charging more is that they do this to recover loses from shoplifting. It's a fact and it happens far more in poor areas.

Do they shoplift more because the prices are so much higher or are the prices much higher because they shoplift more? Hmmm....



For the sake of this discussion, I don't think it matters. The questions raised were what could the lady in the story possibly be doing with her stamps, is she being irresponsible, etc. I was just pointing out why her money might not stretch as far as other people.

[myrdale]

Up until about the 8 grade I always took a bagged lunch to school. Around 9th I started buying the school lunch. Once I was standing in line every day with my $4.50, I started noticing most everyone else (70%) had the free lunch cards. These same people would spend $2 to $3 every day at break, where as all I had was $1 for a drink and chips.

My parents are white, work hard for a decent middle class salary. Though I earned a degree in engineering, I didnt score the highest on the ACT, and had to struggle to keep B's on my averages. I had one small scholarship that basically only covered books, it was a blessing. Other than that my parents worked hard to put me though college, and paid out of pocket all the way though. I was blessed.

Though I specialized in pulp and paper I was passed over for a job at a paper mill for a person who filled two quotas, though this person had no prior history with pulp and paper and had been caught up in a cheating scandel. The job I got though has lasted nearly 5 years, I am sure where I am at is for the best.

When ever I graduated college and moved up here for my job, I was in a bit of a rush to find an appartment. The one I found was $650 a month, utilities included. It was catty corner to my bank and the police station, perfect! It didn't take many nights of listening to windows being broken and shouting and police sirens to reallize I was in a real dump.

When I signed the lease, the land lord originally insisted on cash only, to which I flatly refused. I basically told him either he would accept my personal checks or I would seek living quarters else where. A year later, I had all my finances in order and I purchased the house I have been in for the past 3 years. They were sad too see me go.

My folks had joked before that I was most likely the only one paying rent. This never made sense to me, until I learned about section 8 housing. That is how the other tenants afforded cable TV, new cars, etc.

My mother is a nurse. She has seen women leave their clinic extremely mad at their 13 & 14 year old daughters because they WERE NOT pregnet.

If I didnt take my lunch money to school, I would not eat. If my parents didnt work for it I might not have gotten my education. If I didnt have something to offer my company I would not have been hired. If I didn't pay my rent I would be evicted. If I got a girl knocked up, the government would not be sending us a check every month.

What is so crooked about entitlements is how spoiled and wasteful the alot of the people who receive them are. How they breed an entire subculture totally reliant on them, passed on generation to generation. Most of all how they take money from me to help people who will not get up and help themselves.

*takes a deep breath

[myrdale]

I should also mention people who take advantage of the system. My father use to tell me about a neighbor who got WIC and other programs to pay for his childrens baby food because the guy had been, well kicked in family jewels when he was young *ponders how he got to be a father?

Also I have an uncle who is a pipe line welder. Travels all over and makes $80k in 6 months, then takes off 6 months to draw unemployment.

[disneysteve]

How they breed an entire subculture totally reliant on them, passed on generation to generation.

This is a problem I wish they would address. I see it often at work. A patient is on disability for what was originally a legitimate reason, an injury perhaps. The patient is now recovered and capable of working again. The problem is that the moment he goes back to work, he loses his health insurance. He wants to go back to work but can't afford to give up the insurance. This is one thing that health care reform needs to deal with so people can get back to work and still be insured.

[elessar78]

I know I mention this a lot, but I see a lot of this stuff first hand. I live in one of those old, depressed steel towns. There's a huge drug problem here and a lot of people are on some form of gov't assistance. I can't go the post office and not have some person in line complaining about how their "check" didn't come (poor people here seem to move a lot).

My wife's job works with this population a lot and it's become a cultural thing for these people (who are mostly white, btw). Parents were on assistance and they know no other way of living. It's become normalized. On the first Friday of every month Wal-Mart is packed. You stand in line behind some people in the grocery and they have a cart full of junk food and pay with food stamps. I joke with my wife that only in America can "poor" people be fat. Plus, these are the same people that are on medicare. Maybe if they'd eat better they wouldn't be sick so much. Some of these people literally eat until they develop a condition and can go on disability (not for that purpose, but it's the eventual outcome).

My point is this, which has been mentioned, it's life skills that these people don't possess. No one taught them how to function in society. If you move, you must file a change of address. Cooking from scratch is healthier and can stretch your food budget. Create a budget so you don't fall short every month and have to take a pay day loan. Don't rent furniture.

Like DisneySteve touched on, what's the point of teaching these kids F. Scott Fitzgerald or the circulatory system of a frog, or how to balance equations in chemistry... they need life skills first to break the cycle.

I'm pretty liberal in my political beliefs, but seeing this on a daily basis really challenges those beliefs. It's one of those things that I didn't understand living in a major city and there are a ton of other areas/cities like mine in the country.

[GREENBACK]

Do they shoplift more because the prices are so much higher or are the prices much higher because they shoplift more? Hmmm....

They shoplift because it's the culture. I grew up in this stuff. I worked as a police officer around this stuff. I know for a fact that you can steal T-bones and trade them for "crack". You can trade groceries for sex. You can steal food and sell it on the corner. Price has little to do with it. It's mainly about everyone else doing it.