Taxes

[Angio333]

Actually, I think it is more about parents and their level of involvement in their children's lives than it is about teachers and students. Of course, you can't attract and retain good teachers if you can't afford to pay them. And kids can't pay attention and learn if the school environment isn't conducive to teaching due to safety issues, physical plant issues like heating and cooling, adequate lighting and functioning plumbing. These things all require adequate funding.

As for voting against increases to school budgets, I hope you research those proposals before blindly voting against them. Find out what is going in in your local schools and what restraints the teachers have due to funding shortages. In what year was the current history text published? Do classrooms even have enough textbooks to go around? There is no denying the necessity for computers at this point. Do your schools have reasonably up to date systems for teaching the kids? And how many computers are there relative to the number of children? Look around and you may find that in many schools, there is one computer per classroom which is pretty worthless when it comes to teaching a class of 20 kids how to effectively use the computer. Forget computers. Do classrooms even have basic supplies like pens and paper. We live in an area with highly rated schools and fairly high taxes and in my daughter's elementary school, teachers were limited on what handouts they were allowed to distribute to conserve copy paper due to budget constraints.

Next time the school budget is up for a vote, please reconsider automatically voting against it.

About 5-8 years ago Cleveland shut down a few of their schools. It turned out that they threw away all of the textbooks....the same textbooks that were being used in schools that were not shut down. The schools that were open were saying that they did not have enoughh textbooks and the district threw several hundred away instead of sending them to the other side of the city.

Cleveland is a very urban school district. It is does very poorly compared to other schools in the state, but has one of the highest cost per student in the state. More money is not the answer.

I won't vote for a school levy in Cleveland anytime soon. The city is ine the county with the highest property tax in the state. We do not need to raise it even more.

[Daylily]

Angio333 - do you mind sharing what your 2008 effective tax rate for federal and state were based on your prepared returns? I'd really like to get an idea of what your effective tax rate was for last year.

There is usually a thread every year where people post this in April/May but I can't find that right now so I don't know if you posted to it then.

[disneysteve]

Cleveland is a very urban school district. It is does very poorly compared to other schools in the state, but has one of the highest cost per student in the state. More money is not the answer.

I agree. In a setting like that, more money won't help because the problem is generally outside of the control of the school district. As I said above, there are larger issues - lack of parental involvement, drugs, violence, hunger, divorce, domestic abuse, etc. However, how would privatizing the schools make the situation any better?

[GREENBACK]

Actually, I think it is more about parents and their level of involvement in their children's lives than it is about teachers and students. Of course, you can't attract and retain good teachers if you can't afford to pay them. And kids can't pay attention and learn if the school environment isn't conducive to teaching due to safety issues, physical plant issues like heating and cooling, adequate lighting and functioning plumbing. These things all require adequate funding.


As for voting against increases to school budgets, I hope you research those proposals before blindly voting against them. Find out what is going in in your local schools and what restraints the teachers have due to funding shortages. In what year was the current history text published? Do classrooms even have enough textbooks to go around? There is no denying the necessity for computers at this point. Do your schools have reasonably up to date systems for teaching the kids? And how many computers are there relative to the number of children? Look around and you may find that in many schools, there is one computer per classroom which is pretty worthless when it comes to teaching a class of 20 kids how to effectively use the computer. Forget computers. Do classrooms even have basic supplies like pens and paper. We live in an area with highly rated schools and fairly high taxes and in my daughter's elementary school, teachers were limited on what handouts they were allowed to distribute to conserve copy paper due to budget constraints.

Next time the school budget is up for a vote, please reconsider automatically voting against it.

When I spoke of "teachers and students" I was commenting strictly about classroom learning but of course the parent/student/teacher relationship is crucial. Thankyou for pointing that out.

I don't "blindly" vote for or against anything. I do the research. I live in a pretty good school district and have been in almost every school here. I know many of the teachers from these schools. I know many of the students. I'm in their corner 100%. When levies for schools or anything else are proposed I do bother to look into why it's needed and if the answer is not very clear(majority of the time) or is somewhat wasteful(some of the time) I don't vote for it. I have voted for levies in the past when I had a clear and concise explanation for needing additional funds. I don't just take it on faith that it's a school levy so it must be a good thing.

My property taxes run a little on the high side for my area and I don't mind as long as the money is being properly used. How many people vote for tax increases without researching exactly what the hell they're voting for? The answer is way, way too many. I think so many people vote with their heart when you need to vote with a clear combination of your heart and your head. politicians and those who stand to gain a lot from this or that tax being passed we'll appeal to the emotions of people and pretty much stay away from the cerebral part of the argument, and that's unfortunate.

[disneysteve]

Greenback, I hope my post didn't sound accusatory. I'm sure you do your homework before voting. I know lots of people don't, though. Unfortunately, it tends to be folks without school age children anymore. When their kids were in school, I'm sure they wanted those schools to have all they needed. Now that their kids are grown, the grumble about paying taxes and having so much money support the schools. That always bugs me. Just because they are no longer using the schools doesn't mean the schools are no longer needed or deserving of support.

[GREENBACK]

Greenback, I hope my post didn't sound accusatory. I'm sure you do your homework before voting. I know lots of people don't, though. Unfortunately, it tends to be folks without school age children anymore. When their kids were in school, I'm sure they wanted those schools to have all they needed. Now that their kids are grown, the grumble about paying taxes and having so much money support the schools. That always bugs me. Just because they are no longer using the schools doesn't mean the schools are no longer needed or deserving of support.

I don't have school age children but I care because having well eduated, upstanding citizens benefits the community as a whole. I didn't think you were neccesarily being accusatory but I did want to stress the importance of not just voting for things that sound right on the surface but are not so good when you look underneath.

I love to help people, as well as, any institution that truly helps others. I, however, will not waste a dime on inefficient waste.

[disneysteve]

I don't have school age children but I care because having well eduated, upstanding citizens benefits the community as a whole.

Exactly. So many people just don't seem to think that way. They figure that since they are done with the schools, there is no more reason to support them.

[thekid]

Looking at the amount of US debt and current and projected deficits, taxes are going up and staying up for a while. It's inevitable.

Also, one may discuss as much as one wants on the proper role of government, but "what the constitution says" is a bit weak. The role of government evolves and is not static since the 18th century.

[elessar78]

It's interesting to point out that our country was essentially founded in protest against unjust taxation.

So I think nothing is more American that complaining about taxes. But I don't think it's enough to just say that we pay too much in taxes, without giving cause. I can say I pay too much in rent, but in reality I could be paying the proper market value for my apartment.

So when people complain about paying too much, what is it exactly do you think that you're overpaying for? Because all of us can agree that some taxes are necessary.

For example, is going to college an initiative the gov't needs to undertake? Is homeownership something the gov't should push? As a nation, do we have an obligation to take care of the less fortunate?

What happens to the overall quality of life in America if the funds are eventually cut off for welfare? I think our politicians instrinsically understand that throwing the lower classes a bone is necessary to maintain order.

[snafu]

The American school system is one of the most innovative, emulated, dynamic and successful methodology in the world. There are some terrific programs in problem areas where teachers, parents and administration have come together to ensure their children learn. If you wish to improve the system, get involved. Get to know your representatives, volunteer some time and keep asking [in a positive way] for improvements. Yes, you are asked to contriibute Kleenex because it is needed and if you don't supply it...there will be none. Some schools have a breakfast program and for some children it is the only real food they get. I am not talking about some 3rd World Country!

No one does 5-6 years in the Faculty of Education hating children and seeking their failure. The teachers want to teach, the administration beats the bushes for success but when politicans, parents and children refuse/decline to take an active role that failure has dire consequences. Research galore confirms parents who were not happy/ successful in school stay as far away from the education system as they can. Parents [often new immigrants] who are desperate to earn sufficient income have lost control of their children; encouragement and motivation are foreign concepts so they impose punishment which alienates and divides.

[asmom]

It's interesting to point out that our country was essentially founded in protest against unjust taxation.

So I think nothing is more American that complaining about taxes. But I don't think it's enough to just say that we pay too much in taxes, without giving cause. I can say I pay too much in rent, but in reality I could be paying the proper market value for my apartment.

So when people complain about paying too much, what is it exactly do you think that you're overpaying for? Because all of us can agree that some taxes are necessary.

For example, is going to college an initiative the gov't needs to undertake? Is homeownership something the gov't should push? As a nation, do we have an obligation to take care of the less fortunate?

What happens to the overall quality of life in America if the funds are eventually cut off for welfare? I think our politicians instrinsically understand that throwing the lower classes a bone is necessary to maintain order.

While I essentially agree with what you wrote, I would like to point out that our country was founded in protest of taxation without representation. I think that's essential because a lot of modern day people are blurring that line and claiming that their tax protests are just like the founding fathers. Not so.

[cptacek]

What's sickening is the idea that someone would gladly give 10% of their income to a private Sunday morning social club, but resent contributing to the society that provides for the elderly, veterans, defense, roads, the safety of food,drugs, consumer products, regulation of energy, communications, air and maritime transport, the financial system, science research, education- I could go on.

What this person does with their money and who they contribute to is none of your business. 10% to a church or 10% to the local bar or 10% to a fancy health club every month, why does that matter to you? Does every penny of your income go to either necessities (which, if you post them, I'm sure we could point out some not-so-necessity items) or taxes? If not, that means you have disposable income. Why aren't you voluntarily sending that extra money in to the government? They will gladly take it.

BTW, nice of you to pick off some of the things reasonable people accept as government worthy (I'm not agreeing with all of them on your list, nor am I necessarily agreeing the federal government should provide the ones I agree with vs state or local). Why didn't you say "...contributing to the society that provides $4500 to help someone buy a car, bailing our car companies and taking over their day to day operations, bailing out banks and allowing AIG to funnel our tax money to other countries, coupons for the digital TV conversion, motivational retreats for Social Security employees, money for farmers to not farm land, farm subsidies for such great agricultural minds as David Rockefeller, Ted Turner and Scottie Pippen, grants to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, funds for water taxis, bridges to nowhere, oyster rehabilitation at the University of South Alabama, paying people to "volunteer", continued funding of the JSF (joint strike fighter) that is at least $55 billion over its budgeted cost, funding for presidential libraries..." well, I hope you get the point.

[cptacek]

ROFLOL...Your neighbors to the north pay 48% of earned income to some form of tax whether federal, provincial, municipal, consumption, gasoline, liquor tax,auto registration/licence, luxury tax, bridge tolls and a couple of others I don't remember this minute.

Yes, and when they have some bad news from a doctor, they come here. And they piggyback off our defense program. Not to knock Canada at all, but that comparison is apples to oranges.

[cptacek]

There's nothing the government does that the private sector can't do better? Really????? Exactly how would people pay for education without taxes? I'm fortunate that growing up and in adulthood I've never had to rely on any public assistance or welfare. However, in reality, I have: I attended public schools and I received federally subsidized student loans to attend college. There is no way my parents could have afforded to pay tuition for me during my K-12 years and certainly no way they could have afforded college tuition or graduate school tuition.

As a result of people paying income taxes and property taxes, I was able to attend public schools in K-12. I then went on to attend college for more than eight years. As a result I am a gainfully employed tax-paying contributing citizen. My 2008 EFFECTIVE Tax rate for federal was 20.9%. My 2008 EFFECTIVE tax rate for state was 6.2%. I also pay near another 3% of my income in property taxes. So yeah, I'm paying a pretty good chunk towards taxes. BUT DO I MIND? NO. I know that my contributions are going towards helping others receive public education. I know that my contributions are going towards roads and police officers and other services and protection. I know that my contributions are going to entitlement/welfare programs for children who are born into situations that they didn't ask for.

Perhaps college wouldn't be so damned expensive if the federal government wasn't providing so much support to the price rise via cheap money and pell grants? My sister went to school last year for a total of $150 for books/tuition on a full load of classes, and she got free room because she was an RA. I got free books/tuition for grad school because I taught a few classes while taking my own. I admit these might be considered "extreme" examples, but I know it doesn't have to cost $40,000 a year for college.

If the public schools are so much better than private, then why are some parties scared to give families vouchers? Are they afraid they will pull the students out of the public school system? Why is that, if the public schools are so much better?

[cptacek]

As for privitization, I think the army/military is in MUCH better hands in the government than handled by blackwater.

Agree with this 100% (I would say 1000%, but I know math ) Funny, provisions for the defense of our nation is written in some document. I forget the name, but it is about 200 years old and doesn't change that often...