A premise - working poor

[wincrasher]

Sigh..

Princess please re-read the thread. Seeker is talking about HCOLA areas - particularly NY.

Defining something as poverty is not an insult directed at anyone - neither is calling someone rich.

This premise I described is predicated on a young couple just starting out. It's hard to compare their case to someone who has worked and saved many years to buy their own place. That is a different case.

My particular cost of living is way below $50k. I own two homes and 3 cars.

Even so, it sounds like to me that most people have a hard time getting past the basics on an income of $50k or less, especially if they have any credit card or other debt. Health insurance is another factor.

[Seeker]

PrincessPerky -- 2007 info but here's a comparison:

I used this site to input city, state combinations:
Sperling's BestPlaces

City Overview
As of 2007, Charlotte's population is 630,478 people. Since 2000, it has had a population growth of 16.58 percent.

The median home cost in Charlotte is $253,600. Home appreciation the last year has been 2.10 percent.

Compared to the rest of the country, Charlotte's cost of living is 9.30% Lower than the U.S. average.

Charlotte public schools spend $5,961 per student. The average school expenditure in the U.S. is $6,058. There are about 15 students per teacher in Charlotte.

The unemployment rate in Charlotte is 3.90 percent(U.S. avg. is 4.60%). Recent job growth is Positive. Charlotte jobs have Increased by 2.14 percent.

City Overview
As of 2007, Los Angeles's population is 3,849,378 people. Since 2000, it has had a population growth of 4.18 percent.

The median home cost in Los Angeles is $760,600. Home appreciation the last year has been -1.46 percent.

Compared to the rest of the country, Los Angeles's cost of living is 55.66% Higher than the U.S. average.

Los Angeles public schools spend $6,133 per student. The average school expenditure in the U.S. is $6,058. There are about 21 students per teacher in Los Angeles.

The unemployment rate in Los Angeles is 4.90 percent(U.S. avg. is 4.60%). Recent job growth is Positive. Los Angeles jobs have Increased by 0.84 percent.

City Overview
As of 2007, New York's population is 8,214,426 people. Since 2000, it has had a population growth of 2.57 percent.

The median home cost in New York is $658,600. Home appreciation the last year has been -0.42 percent.

Compared to the rest of the country, New York's cost of living is 64.50% Higher than the U.S. average.

New York public schools spend $7,964 per student. The average school expenditure in the U.S. is $6,058. There are about 18 students per teacher in New York.

The unemployment rate in New York is 4.60 percent(U.S. avg. is 4.60%). Recent job growth is Negative. New York jobs have Decreased by 0.07 percent.

I'm in a suburban area of LA county. I can drive many directions and find poverty and also the extreme opposite; I need not go to a third world country. I am quite familiar with more than one family living in one physical location and even people renting out their garages to other people. I've seen it all here. And it's not limited to poor areas either.

California has some advantages, namely work/jobs and weather... but there are way too many people here and long-term there's no future here -- too many taxes and too much pollution. Retiring or losing our jobs means leaving this state, we won't have a choice.

PrincessPerky, I ask you if your house was transplanted to either LA, CA or NY, NY do you really beleieve that you and your family can thrive under +50% COL ratios and winchasers income numbers? With a $50k income and a minimum $12/k rental per year outgo for housing and children? And all that their care should be?

[Goldy1]

Some people in hcol areas don't want to move and won't. I have distant relatives (a family with a husband, wife, and 2 kids) living in Florida. They chose to rent a condo in Boca RAton for over $1200 a month which is nothing fancy and quite frankly, not a unit I would want to live in.
THey are very low income(mom is a maid and dad is chronically unemployed)
They could move here to MI and rent a very nice condo or house in a nice neighborhood for a lot less than what they pay. (possibly $800) and other things such as auto insurance may be cheaper.
But if you grew up somewhere, you don't always want to move.

[MonkeyMama]

Middle class assumes more than a day-to-day living. Saving with a 50k income for a family of four? Do you really believe this is possible today?

IMO this would not be possible in any city in California... definitely not with a moderate lifestyle as you describe.

I *get* what Seeker is saying when it comes to extreme HCOLAs like NY, SF & LA. No argument there.

But I know plenty of people who live in Cali on $50k (families of four or more). They are not remotely impoverished. There are some areas of the state that are quite affordable.

It just bugs me to lump the entire state in the way of LA or SF. I have to strongly disagree. I know people my age here (31) with $500/monthly mortgage payments for NICE homes.

I guess I find it even more absurd because I am from the Bay Area. God forbid anyone here had to live in an apartment. But apartment living can be very middle class and affordable here. In the Bay Area the rich live in apartments because it's all they can afford. It's just all so relative.

[LuxLiving]

Re - the new poverty guidelines:

2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines

[PrincessPerky]

Seeker your note made it seem like 50K was poverty..regardless of living area.

Middle class assumes more than a day-to-day living. Saving with a 50k income for a family of four? Do you really believe this is possible today?

No I do not find 50K adequate in NY city, however I am TIRED of folk thinking 50K is poor.

Life may be more than work and sleep, but it sure as #$#%% is more than fancy restaurants nannies, and limousines as well.

I do not need to live like James Bond to feel I have a full life.

Yes there are areas with ridiculous HCOL problems, and then there is my family, who thinks Charlotte is a HCOL area (it isn't it is higher than theirs though). It is all relative, but there are some assumptions that need to change, for one thing, poor is a LOT worse off than I am.

[BCHGRL]

I grew up in a family of four living on less than that (~$40K). Now hubby and I earn upwards of $125K. I had all I needed as a child (love, support, food, clothes, and shelter) BUT it was HARD. I don't ever want to go back to that lifestyle. I enjoy not worrying and not fighting about money.

[isthisused]

I was able to support my family of 4 with $17.50 per hour and was able to buy a house. We had all the things on the list and did a few camping trips per year. When I lost that job and took one for $14.00 per hour my wife started her baby-sitting to make up the difference. Our monthly budget was $1,700 + whatever we spent on food. We didn’t buy a lot of fancy stuff but we were quite happy. Then I started getting lots of OT and some really big profit sharing checks at the same time as my wife’s business took off so last year we made about $25,000 more than we ever have before. We have kept our cost of living about the same and we pumped the extra into making the house more energy efficient and the rest into retirement.

[whitestripe]

the one thing that is bugging me with your exercise is that when anyone suggests anything other than the house with the picket fence and trying to frugally reduce amounts of different things you shut them down with 'this is not a how low can you go exercise'. i think everyone gets that now, but to be honest with the way things are now with the economy, and they WILL be like this for years to come, there are a LOT more people living frugally than there was before. so, in the interests of 'average' i would beg you to safely assume that this 'average' family will practise 'average' methods of frugality.

[tripods68]

It just bugs me to lump the entire state in the way of LA or SF. I have to strongly disagree. I know people my age here (31) with $500/monthly mortgage payments for NICE homes.

I guess I find it even more absurd because I am from the Bay Area. God forbid anyone here had to live in an apartment. But apartment living can be very middle class and affordable here. In the Bay Area the rich live in apartments because it's all they can afford. It's just all so relative.

I agree. Let me also add its about timing. Few of my buddies from college bought houses in mid 90s before home prices skyrocketed early 2000. They paid anywhere from $70K to 140K (foreclosed homes) in some nicest area in Sacramento, not ghetto. They were renting their investment properties more than they actually paid for. Making $200 to $400K extra a month profit while the equity slowly went up over the years. All of them now quite the business while took more 9-5 regular jobs.