Auto bailout makes no sense

[GrimJack]

[QUOTE=maat55;199151]

Neither do I. Based on the numbers presented, lets say 68.00 per hour:

68.00x40=2720.00x52=141,440.00 With all compensations considered, this is the number I go by.

Where did you get $68.00 per hour as a figure? The actual average UAW wage is $28.00 per hour. When you use the number of straight time hours in a year of 2080 times 28 you get $58,240. I used $50k because it simplifies computations - 2000 workers is easier to visualize than 1717.032967032967032967032967033 workers.

[Inkstain82]

Hmm, this board's unending enthusiasm for the free market sure did die quickly.

[maat55]

[QUOTE=GrimJack;199184]

Where did you get $68.00 per hour as a figure? The actual average UAW wage is $28.00 per hour. When you use the number of straight time hours in a year of 2080 times 28 you get $58,240. I used $50k because it simplifies computations - 2000 workers is easier to visualize than 1717.032967032967032967032967033 workers.

Home / News / Nation / Washington
Autoworker wage and benefit differences
By The Associated Press
December 11, 2008
Email| Print| Single Page| Yahoo! Buzz| ShareThisText size – + Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

[cptacek]

The jobs bank was established during 1984 labor contract talks between the UAW and the Big Three. The union, still reeling from the loss of 500,000 jobs during the recession of the late 1970s and early 1980s, was determined to protect those who were left. Detroit automakers were eager to win union support to boost productivity through increased automation and more production flexibility.

The result was a plan to guarantee pay and benefits for union members whose jobs fell victim to technological progress or plant restructurings. In most cases, workers end up in the jobs bank only after they have exhausted their government unemployment benefits, which are also supplemented by the companies through a related program. In some cases, workers go directly into the program and the benefits can last until they are eligible to retire or return to the factory floor.

By making it so expensive to keep paying idled workers, the UAW thought Detroit automakers would avoid layoffs. By discouraging layoffs, the union thought it could prevent outsourcing.

Yeah, you didn't convince me. If workers are not needed by the company, they should get laid off, REALLY laid off. And why did the companies have to win union support to boost productivity for automation and production flexibility? Isn't that what businesses should do? Do you think that no company should use systems to increase productivity? Do you think that companies shouldn't use computers because it puts the calculator guild out of business? Do you think farmers shouldn't use tractors because they should still be using horses? Should we still have steam engines for trains instead of diesel?

[disneysteve]

It's wrong for someone to make $50k/year for a job that others would be willing to do for much less.

Hmm, this board's unending enthusiasm for the free market sure did die quickly.

I think your first post came off wrong. I'm assuming what you were getting at is that companies should be free to pay their workers whatever wage is needed to attract qualified workers for a given position rather than an amount pre-determined by a union.

If we want to hire a new staff member in my office, how much we offer to pay that person is up to us. We would find out what the going rate is in the area for similar jobs and also look at what we can afford to pay and arrive at a number from there. If the pay we offer is too low, we probably won't get anyone to take the job in which case we'd need to reevaluate the offer. A union shop doesn't have that freedom.

[Goldy1]

I respect uaw workers and blue collar folks. I live in the metro area so I grew up knowing and still know many folks in the big 3.

I sure as heck don't want to work on the line. My dh had the chance years ago but elected to do something "With his mind" as he says so he got a job in engineering type work. He has always loved his work.
In one resect, pay them whatever they want. If the union and the big 3 agreed to pay line workers $50 an hour. So be it. Fine.
The problem that I have is the people I know in the big are constantly getting laid off. Many months a year. MY dh is laid off (indefinitely) and his unemployment checks are the max the state pays. IT is about $9.25 an hour. There is no jobs bank after that. I have spent tons of time getting him health insurance. His brother and wife are "laid off" from CHrysler and getting about $28 an hour, full benefits, and is on vacation right now as we speak.
Life isn't fair. I have held jobs where I worked more for less pay than others. Life is never "fair".
If life was fair, these hedge managers would not make billions, some of them not getting great returns.
There are bigger injustices than the UAW jobs bank etc., but trust me, they are losing members and the current members might get the goodies, but they may be the last. I heard new hires get less.

I am pro union=stuff like teacher unions etc.

[maat55]

I respect uaw workers and blue collar folks. I live in the metro area so I grew up knowing and still know many folks in the big 3.

I sure as heck don't want to work on the line. My dh had the chance years ago but elected to do something "With his mind" as he says so he got a job in engineering type work. He has always loved his work.
In one resect, pay them whatever they want. If the union and the big 3 agreed to pay line workers $50 an hour. So be it. Fine.
The problem that I have is the people I know in the big are constantly getting laid off. Many months a year. MY dh is laid off (indefinitely) and his unemployment checks are the max the state pays. IT is about $9.25 an hour. There is no jobs bank after that. I have spent tons of time getting him health insurance. His brother and wife are "laid off" from CHrysler and getting about $28 an hour, full benefits, and is on vacation right now as we speak.
Life isn't fair. I have held jobs where I worked more for less pay than others. Life is never "fair".
If life was fair, these hedge managers would not make billions, some of them not getting great returns.
There are bigger injustices than the UAW jobs bank etc., but trust me, they are losing members and the current members might get the goodies, but they may be the last. I heard new hires get less.

I am pro union=stuff like teacher unions etc.

I could care less what any company agrees to pay its employees.

Where I have a problem is when they want me to subsidize their expenses. I'm a amazed that in the United States of America, I have to defend that a company should compete for my dollars without government assistance.

[GrimJack]

Yeah, you didn't convince me. If workers are not needed by the company, they should get laid off, REALLY laid off. And why did the companies have to win union support to boost productivity for automation and production flexibility? Isn't that what businesses should do? Do you think that no company should use systems to increase productivity? Do you think that companies shouldn't use computers because it puts the calculator guild out of business? Do you think farmers shouldn't use tractors because they should still be using horses? Should we still have steam engines for trains instead of diesel?

I do not think you read the quote very well. I don't really care to convince you of anything - you did not ask me to convince you, you asked for a justification - 500,000 jobs lost to outsourcing was my answer. The other stuff you ask is not thoughtful response, it is just babbling.

[GrimJack]

Hmm, this board's unending enthusiasm for the free market sure did die quickly.

This portion of the board is for discussion, if I was supposed to support the free market - they should have warned me.

I see the near collapse of the U.S. financial system, the $50billion Ponzi losses in the stock market, KBR's poisoning and electricuting our troops in Iraq, the Tennessee coal sludge disaster, etc are doing a pretty good job of derailing the 'free market'.

[cptacek]

I could care less what any company agrees to pay its employees.

Where I have a problem is when they want me to subsidize their expenses.

Agree!!! This is my main beef too! If they want to give them gold toilets in the restrooms, have at it. But if the company fails, they fail. My tax dollars shouldn't pay to bail them out.

[GrimJack]

[QUOTE=maat55;199187]

Home / News / Nation / Washington
Autoworker wage and benefit differences
By The Associated Press
December 11, 2008
Email| Print| Single Page| Yahoo! Buzz| ShareThisText size – + Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

Okay, I was talking wages - you were talking wages, benefits, and pension costs. I do not understand what your problem with people collecting pensions is - do you think we should deny the retired workers their pensions? When I was talking about the single executive walking out the door with $100million, I did not include his pension, his benefits nor did I include the pensions and benefits of all the other executives who work for, will work for, have worked for the corporation.

Even using your figures, labor works out to be less than 9% of the total cost of the vehicle.

American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.

So the worker earns $70 in wages, benefits, and pension expenses but contribute $206 to the economy. Where is the problem?

[Inkstain82]

This portion of the board is for discussion, if I was supposed to support the free market - they should have warned me.

I see the near collapse of the U.S. financial system, the $50billion Ponzi losses in the stock market, KBR's poisoning and electricuting our troops in Iraq, the Tennessee coal sludge disaster, etc are doing a pretty good job of derailing the 'free market'.

Of course you don't have to support the free market. It's just that a large majority of this board's posters are strict financial conservatives. Most of the time I've drawn that sort of vitriol on this board has been for the opposite: exposing my filthy fiscal liberal tendencies.

But I don't think the solution to any problem is to pay those sorts of wages to unskilled manufacturing labor.

[Inkstain82]

I would really love to see how someone calculated that a auto manufacturing employee produces $206/hour in value added.

[GrimJack]

Of course you don't have to support the free market. It's just that a large majority of this board's posters are strict financial conservatives. Most of the time I've drawn that sort of vitriol on this board has been for the opposite: exposing my filthy fiscal liberal tendencies.

But I don't think the solution to any problem is to pay those sorts of wages to unskilled manufacturing labor.

I post here when I disagree with a post, I do not believe in 'free market' and it seems to me that most people here don't really support a true free market, they just believe that free market means unbridled management. It is actually a dynamic system with 3 opposing forces working for balance (labor, government, and lets just use 'management'). But I am not sure because I have not heard anyone explain what they mean by 'free market'. I have never been a member of a union but I am pro-union because I know what the alternative is.

What unskilled manufacturing labor are we talking about? The wages I use when I post are 'average'. I have no concept of 'unskilled manufacturing labor' - please explain.

[maat55]

[QUOTE=GrimJack;199209]

Okay, I was talking wages - you were talking wages, benefits, and pension costs. I do not understand what your problem with people collecting pensions is - do you think we should deny the retired workers their pensions? When I was talking about the single executive walking out the door with $100million, I did not include his pension, his benefits nor did I include the pensions and benefits of all the other executives who work for, will work for, have worked for the corporation.

Even using your figures, labor works out to be less than 9% of the total cost of the vehicle. So the worker earns $70 in wages, benefits, and pension expenses but contribute $206 to the economy. Where is the problem?

Again, I could care less what any company pays its workers as long as they do not come to me for help. Give them lavish pensions, 5 star mansions, but do it on their own dime, not mine. How the hell can you justify unfundable compensation?

Government bailouts are my problem.

The auto industry knew it had a problem long ago and did nothing about, they disserve to go through BK to clean it up.