Trickle down or trickle up economics?

[feh]

Again, I emphatically disagree. I do not consider myself "smart"' by any means. I do subscribe to the theory that to achieve success it take 1% intelligence and 99% hard work. I'm simply amazed at the laziness of the average American. The system is in place. Just get an education! Is it really that hard to excel in school? NO IT'S NOT!! I wonder how our society would function if 90% of Americans were college educated? The irony is the large number foreign students that come to America to get an education, while most young Americans piss away that golden opportunity.

Support your position. "Because I say so" is not an effective or valid line of reasoning.

There is easily obtained evidence that indicates you are wrong. It is of course your prerogative to ignore that evidence, although it bothers me that anybody would willfully choose a path of ignorance.

[disneysteve]

Just get an education! Is it really that hard to excel in school? NO IT'S NOT!!

When you say "education" are you referring to a college education? As I look around the area where I work, I see few kids who are likely to go to college. Why? They are growing up in poverty with parents (or 1 parent) who isn't the least bit involved and often smokes, drinks and/or does drugs. They are attending public schools that are failing in their efforts to educate the kids partly due to lack of funding, partly due to poor attendance, partly due to drugs and violence, partly due to spending more time addressing social issues than academic issues, etc. How many of these kids will be adequately prepared for college? How many of them will have the means to attend college? How many of them will live long enough to finish high school and college?

As a doctor, I also see things through that perspective. Many of these kids were born to parents who smoked, drank and did drugs during pregnancy, and continue to do so now. There is zero support structure in the home. Nobody to help with homework. No computer to use. Little to no access even to the public library. Abuse and neglect are common. Nutrition is non-existent. I see moms giving their infants bottles filled with bright blue fruit punch and older kids getting a Coke and bag of chips for breakfast. That's got to affect development and function. Chronic health problems are rampant and under-treated. Obesity is epidemic. So many of these kids have the deck stacked against them before they even get to an age where they are in control of their own lives.

Again, I'm not saying some kids won't rise out of this mess. I just can not agree that these kids have the same odds of success as kids raised in more stable, well-off families.

[maat55]

In general, I agree with you, but you've got to admit that the rich (and even the middle class) generally start off in life with a competitive advantage. I work in a very poor area, one of the poorest cities in the country (I'm not sure if it is still ranked #1). I see how people live. I see indirectly the quality of the education. I see the way people struggle to accomplish basic things that you and I take for granted. I'm not saying it is impossible to overcome being poor if you make wise decisions and choices in life, but I do think it is tougher for those with limited means and limited education to know what those wise choices might be. It isn't like they have a lot of great role models.

I agree that for some, success takes more work. But, many of the poor do not work to get an higher paying education and settle for lower wages. Trying to build wealth on lower income is a huge challenge, but doable.

Due to their lower income they have to sacrifice more and do not. Thus, they spend all their income on lifestyle. Everyone knows life isn't completely fair. I think that basic fundamentals of personal finance should be taught from middle school through high school. One class in high school is not sufficient. I especially think it should be a top priority class in college basics.

With all this said, I am firmly against government giving free money to the working poor. I believe in " Teach a man to fish", but they mostly need to learn how to manage the catch. We all know this. The question is: what should governments roll be in this? I'm for education, but no handouts.

[m3racer]

Support your position. "Because I say so" is not an effective or valid line of reasoning.

There is easily obtained evidence that indicates you are wrong. It is of course your prerogative to ignore that evidence, although it bothers me that anybody would willfully choose a path of ignorance.

If you can present your statistical analysis than by all means reference it. I'm confident that the 25% of the US population that at least obtained a college degree as a whole has better opportunities than those who refer to graduation as finishing high school. If you're going to argue this point than I have nothing else to say.

[KGeary]

I disagree. I don't believe that all employees are paid relative to the value they provide to their companies or to society, and I think the discrepancy has worsened over the years. Look up the data on CEO pay relative to the average employee wage. I don't have the numbers in front of me but it has gone from something like a 25:1 ratio to a 400:1 ratio (those aren't the actual numbers but you get the idea). Is a CEO today worth that much more than a CEO was worth 20 years ago? I think numbers like that are out of whack. The rich have seen their income rise much faster than everyone else. Heck, I've seen my income steadily fall over the years, as have folks in many other professions.

Look at the value a CEO has to a company over the value a just-hired hourly employee...

"I think" isn't a valid argument. The market determines how much employees are paid. The minimum wage has screwed with that and it's the reason we have more unemployment in this country than we should have.

But no, hourly employees, if anything, are overpaid.

[KGeary]

I am a mathematics teacher in Oregon and they require a master's degree. I work in a rural school and as a result make a little over $30,000 a year. Maybe all rural school teachers in Oregon should just realize that the market has told us we are not worth it and either are their children. Instead we should all abandon the children and let them get their education from private schools where the teachers are paid far better. Those children who can't afford private school cannot blame their lack of education on the state but instead should blame themselves for not working hard enough.

"Maybe all rural school teachers in Oregon should just realize that the market has told us we are not worth it and either are their children. Instead we should all abandon the children and let them get their education from private schools where the teachers are paid far better."

Not a bad idea.

Oh, by the way, if there were no government schools there would be competitive private schools that were affordable. It's inevitable. You act like our only car choices are BMWs and Mercedes. It's not the case. There's a reason Toyota makes $40,000 cars and $12,000 cars; they fit their products to the market to maximize their sales. Private schools would do the same.

Government schools are worthless in comparison to the quality we COULD have.

The real question is, if you think you deserve more pay, why don't you leave your job? That's how a free market functions. If you stay with a company that doesn't pay you enough, you're effectively voting yourself a continuation of the situation you don't like. That's stupid.

If you don't like it, but aren't willing to leave, then stop crying about it.

[maat55]

Look at the value a CEO has to a company over the value a just-hired hourly employee...

"I think" isn't a valid argument. The market determines how much employees are paid. The minimum wage has screwed with that and it's the reason we have more unemployment in this country than we should have.

But no, hourly employees, if anything, are overpaid.

The big three auto workers are over paid. IMO, from top to bottom, the big three personel need to reduce their pay. Or you can maybe talk the rest of the industry into adjusting its expenses to the big three.

Correction: KGeary, I just noticed that you were not saying, they weren't overpaid, but that they are overpaid. Which I do agree with as stated.

[Inkstain82]

I honestly wonder what it feels like to be a free-market dogmatist. It must be a lot like being a fundamentalist practitioner of a relgion: No amount of evidence will sway you, because you can always twist it to fit your beliefs.

[Inkstain82]

Hourly workers are overpaid in the sense that they are paid far more than they would be a perfectly free market.

But then, in a perfectly free market, their wage would continually diminish over time as those richer than them accumulate a progressively better bargaining position over time.

Edit to add so I don't triple-post:
The "poor" state of our lower education system is drastically overstated, imho. We aren't tops in the world, but we aren't bottom either, and the shortfall is more cultural than systemic imho.

[tripods68]

The real question is, if you think you deserve more pay, why don't you leave your job? That's how a free market functions. If you stay with a company that doesn't pay you enough, you're effectively voting yourself a continuation of the situation you don't like. That's stupid.

If you don't like it, but aren't willing to leave, then stop crying about it.

I agree. And this points out why people in poor neighborhood stay relatively poor. This seems to support data why half of the fifth bottom and lower middle class income earners remain. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I would add also is this, poor neighborhoods tend to have the highest crime rates; drugs arrest, prostitution, murders, robbery, etc...I know I'm missing some but you get the point. Back when I joined the Navy, I was stationed in Long Beach, CA in 1989. The following year, Long Beach was name the "Murder Capital" in the United States. The second city that went this dubious distinction was Miami. Why? Because of the failing public schools that taught in these areas. Low test scores and API. But spending a lot of money per student is also not the answer. Just check out Washington DC area, where they spend the highest per student in the country some $14K per pupil, yet they have lowest API scores and most drop out students anywhere in the country. So spending more is not the answer. But what is important are the type of curriculums teachers are teaching these kids from early on. It starts from preschool all the way up. Most curriculums are out dated that new needs overhauling from scratch.

What affect this has on the local business and median income? Plenty, most businesses that settle in poor neighborhood are usually low paying jobs, like auto shops, local minimart. You'll never see Intel settling in east LA.

[maat55]

Hourly workers are overpaid in the sense that they are paid far more than they would be a perfectly free market.

But then, in a perfectly free market, their wage would continually diminish over time as those richer than them accumulate a progressively better bargaining position over time.

Edit to add so I don't triple-post:
The "poor" state of our lower education system is drastically overstated, imho. We aren't tops in the world, but we aren't bottom either, and the shortfall is more cultural than systemic imho.

I accept the fact that unions can help and they can hurt. In the case of the auto industry, they are all out killing it. They have to cut expenses from top to bottom, if they intend to be competitive.

I found in Wikipedia that the average cost per pupil in public school is slightly more than twice the cost of private school. Obviously, another well run government program.

[Inkstain82]

I accept the fact that unions can help and they can hurt. In the case of the auto industry, they are all out killing it. They have to cut expenses from top to bottom, if they intend to be competitive.

I found in Wikipedia that the average cost per pupil in public school is slightly more than twice the cost of private school. Obviously, another well run government program.

Private schools pick and choose carefully. I wonder what the average cost per pupil in public school would be if they weren't taking on students with special needs.

[tripods68]

With regards to the Auto Unions, I have to squarely put the blame on the Management of the Auto industry for caving in on the demands of the unions all the time. Their "gutless" whenever they try to negotiate a new contract to say the least, and arrogant to think they couldn't be in worst situation they are now.

[rooskers]

A perfectly free market will work as well as a perfect socialist one. You believe if we trust in the free market everyone will get paid and live a life style they deserve. Wrong!

If it was perfectly free you would get very very very rich people who effectively would be the only people controlling your supposedly "free market". Eventually it would get so bad (working condidtions, almost zero pay for the bottom workers, a complete disregard for humanity, that their would be a revolt. Either that or it would lead to a fuedal system.

Now the opposite in a world where we become perfect socialists. Everyone gets an equal opportunity and everyone works for the betterment of everyone else. Uh oh the problem here is a good portion of the people don't feel they have to work for anything. The other people have to work extra hard to cover the butts of those who aren't working.

In my opinion what has made this nation great and will continue to make this nation great is the strive for a balance between the two concepts. Do we want competition in all forms of business yes. However we try to balance that out with basic human rights such as protection (armed forces, police, fire depart.), education, basic medical care, etc... The difficult part is what we can agree is a basic human right and how much of it should everyone have to support.

Personally since my wife makes a good living as a nurse and I am happy with my income. I bought a house that I can afford to live in and make the payments easily. I am also able to max out my retirements and keep an emergency savings. I am able to give my daughter things (gymnastics class, swim lessons, dance class) that my parents were not able to afford for me. I am not whining I just understand that sometimes others less fortunate do need help and people to stick up for them. However you seem to be sticking up for the billionare CEO's while I am sticking up for educated people who make very little money. You fight for an extreme while I look for the benefits to both sides.

[GrimJack]

A Correctional Officer in California or CCPOA Union has secured the highest paid prison guard in the country at $73K per year plus excellent benefits and pension retirement (3.0 @ 50 years). The only education requirement is high school diploma or GED equivalents.

A single data point is 'pointless', the average wage is less than $44k (@$22.00 per hour).