Why are colleges fully pledged socialists?

[markusk]

Everybody has beat around this issue but no one has brought it up.

There are two (2) forms of financial aid:

1) need-based aid created under Title IV of the US Code,
2) merit-based aid based on the student's record, background, and performance provided by any kind of organization.

The argument is that if you are a well-qualified candidate, your entire college education would be merit-based aid and you would not need to get need-based aid. The second part of the argument is that the student and the parents are required to exhaust their entire assets before need-based aid will kick in.


Your argument would be that need-based aid should be eliminated completely, and we should go to a 100% merit-based aid system.


Carry on

Just to clarify. Ivy League schools do NOT have merit based student aid. They determine admission based on merit (some combo of academic/extracurricular achievements/state residency/race/"legacy"). If the student passes academic muster and gets admitted, THEN the family's finances get evaluated to determin need and a financial aid package consisting of grants are awarded.

I actually attended an Ivy League school myself and did not think it was "all that," however the connections and the doors that opened up for me as a result can not be calculated. I guess all I am saying is that if you or your children's grades are very good, apply to some of the Ivy League schools becasue cost may not be an issue (unfortunately, although there are other "top tier" schools, they do not have the large endowemen:student ratio to fund financial aid)

BTW, the education system in the States has problems, but it is by far the best in the world -- that is why everyone wants to come here to study. I had one college friend from Asia who told me that in his country:
1) competition is fierce. There is one national college exam held in one day throughout the country, and based on this score (and grades) your future is determined.
2) you are only allowed to apply to one college per year. If you don't get in, you have to re-apply the following year or go abroad to study.
3) There is no financial aid.

My friend, who went to Tufts, had #1 and #3 (he was from a wealthy family), but did not get into the school of his choice so came to the States. He had the merit and the money, but not the luck.

From what I remember, back in the 80's when I was applying, the average US highschool student applied to 9 schools (I applied to three -- probably dumb in retrospect, but it worked out at the end).

[InDebtInDC]

Ivy League schools do NOT have merit based student aid. They determine admission based on merit (some combo of academic/extracurricular achievements/state residency/race/"legacy"). If the student passes academic muster and gets admitted, THEN the family's finances get evaluated to determin need and a financial aid package consisting of grants are awarded.

While I did not attend an Ivy League school, I am confused by a the bolded portion of your statement.

As I said above, financial aid can come from any source, including private organizations, companies, endowment funds. Most of these organizations tend to offer merit-based aid packages, but some also offer need-based packages based on race, gender, income, ethnicity, etc. But for the most part, private financial aid is dispersed at the discretion of the org., and most of the orgs tend to specify some merit-based requirement.

Are Ivy League students banned from applying for private merit-based aid? For example, I received a grant from a government organizations, a private company, and an endowment fund. These were all merit-based aid. None of these came from the school.

So if I had gone to, say, Harvard, would the school not allow me to accept these grants that I applied for and received privately?

Are you saying that the school itself doesn't offer merit-based aid, or that the school does not allow the student to get any merit-based aid?

[Caoineag]

I was poor but academically successful. Had I wanted a career that required connections I might have been more willing to take the $100k in loans to go to the Ivy school that offered to admit me. Instead, I went cheap, got merit based scholarships and some loans and went to the cheapest instate college I could find. I didn't consider an ivy league education to be worth 100k, especially not 100k in loans which as anyone knows is a heck of lot more than 100k. While this particular Ivy league guaranteed that you would be able to afford an education at their school (through loans) if they admitted you, I wasn't willing to run the risk of that much debt and not being able to pay it.

The argument that poor people would automatically understand that 100k in debt is worth getting a college education doesn't fly with me, especially if that was the beginning price tag for a college education. You can bet my parents instead of counseling me to go to college would have instead told me it wasn't worth it (I am a first generation graduate).

I have also seen too many people working min wage jobs with that amount of student debt to believe that it is always worth it (not everyone should go to college).

[markusk]

Are you saying that the school itself doesn't offer merit-based aid, or that the school does not allow the student to get any merit-based aid?

Merit-based aid is not offered by the schools, but a student can get merit-based aid from "outside" sources. However, if the student has other sources of aid, the total aid given by the school will likely get decreased because the student's "need" has decreased. In other words, if it is determined that a student's need for the year is 50K (by the school's financial aid dept), but the student was able to secure outside aid of 5K (merit or othewise), the the financial aid award by the school will be 45K.

[Seeker]

Second, If I told every poor person who is in college right now that financial aid was ending and that the cost was $100K to attend, almost all of them would still do it because the benefits far outweigh the costs. Thirdly, rich people wouldn't pay a 100K to go to college unless the benefits far outweighed the costs, so to say poor people wouldn't go to college is rediculous. The only way you can win this one is if you say poor people(who want to get ahead in life) are to stupid to realize the importance of finishing college and the benefits it will give you.

Ummmm. No.

1) Poor people will have a very difficult time finding anyone to loan them money... yes, even for education.

2) Poor people (especially the smart ones), will do anything to keep from getting into debt.

My parents were poor, and from HS I went to straight to work. I quit working, and went back to college when I had enough saved to do so. And then half-way through college, I took on part-time work as well. I never borrowed one cent for my college education.

Being "smart" or being "stupid" in choosing "education costs -- in choosing debt" has little to do with the realities of a HS grad's life. And if you faced the realities of your parents financial condition (if you had folks without $'s), you'd be more willing to not get yourself into their financial nightmare as well.

[Seeker]

This topic also brings up a second issue; namely, why do people think they have to pay these outrageous amounts of dollars for a college education?

Newsweek.com: Newsweek US Edition: Nation: The Worthless Ivy League?

The successful will be successful wherever they go to school. Because ultimately, it's the "drive" that exists within each individual that defines a person's "success or failure" in the things that they do.

[feh]

This topic also brings up a second issue; namely, why do people think they have to pay these outrageous amounts of dollars for a college education?

Newsweek.com: Newsweek US Edition: Nation: The Worthless Ivy League?

The successful will be successful wherever they go to school. Because ultimately, it's the "drive" that exists within each individual that defines a person's "success or failure" in the things that they do.

I haven't read the article, but I firmly agree with the position. There's no need to spend $30K per year on college.

A degree will get you in the door. How a person's career advances after that is dependent on the person's abilities, desires and goals.

[Caoineag]

This topic also brings up a second issue; namely, why do people think they have to pay these outrageous amounts of dollars for a college education?

Newsweek.com: Newsweek US Edition: Nation: The Worthless Ivy League?

The successful will be successful wherever they go to school. Because ultimately, it's the "drive" that exists within each individual that defines a person's "success or failure" in the things that they do.

I definitely agree. Which explains why I went to a cheap instate school instead of the expensive Ivy League.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

It is not true that schools do not have merit scholarships or that merit scholarships come only from outside sources. If you want the full information on sourcing scholarships at a university you might need to read not just the financial aid webpage, but the admissions office webpage. Sometimes the merit scholarships are handled through admissions, not financial aid.

I was also surprised to learn that my son's school has one program to offer additional money exclusively to people who do come with 529 savings. It as though one gets a boost for having been responsible about saving. When parents set their eyes on the 529 savings goal, they can also set their eyes on gathering that 529 supplement.

Yesterday my state legislature was scheduled to pass the funding bill for state colleges and universities: Billions of dollars. I need to check on what they did, as I did not read the news at the end of the day. Personally, I think higher education is one of the things I am happiest to join the social compact to provide for.

(I just want to mention that "Ivy League" does not mean just any very high quality school. It means only Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, the University of Pennsylvania, and Brown. Obviously there are world leader schools in this country beside the ivy league schools.)

[Caoineag]

Yes, Ivy League does mean those. Cornell is the one that guarantees affordability if you are admitted, I don't know about the rest. The only problem is their idea of affordability includes loans. My father at one point made 17K per year. They were charging 20k per year at the time. As neat as that school is, it wasn't worth the cost. At the time, they had even had one of my favorite authors teaching a course there. Would have been quite the experience but my heart stopped at the thought of 100k in loans (double bs in 5 years hence 100k). My high school counselor agreed that was a bit much and is the reason I got a lot of merit based scholarships to another school. She understood that without money, I wasn't going to get very far.

Incidentally, I do think where you go to school during your pre-college years makes a huge difference to whether or not you are successful. Without the support network the school district provided for me, I never would have made it into a university even with my parents pushing for me to go to college. They simply lacked the knowledge to make it possible.

[jIM_Ohio]

most schools give out aid, but you won't know that until after they accept you and you commit to the school.

do your homework and ASK existing students their aid (forms of aid and sources of aid).

In my case- parents made in excess of 100k, I received subsidized and unsubsidized student loans. My senior year I was not dependant on parents and lived on my own, and I received more aid that year. Better loan terms and higher subsized portion.

[GrimJack]

Yep, education is not at all a function of government period. For those of you who own a home, you probably don't even want to know how much money you pay up to have your two kids go through highschool for free.

Excuse me! Are you suggesting that the government should not be supporting free education for K-12? If so, could you please explain your thinking on this.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
GrimJack

[kork13]

Just to throw in my own thoughts on the topic, I'm blown away by the rate at which college expenses are ballooning out of control. Tuition, textbooks, etc. From an article I recently read (sorry, don't remember it), education costs are rising at an average rate of 8%/year, next to the ~3% (average) inflation.

Why is this? Personally, I see it as a function of supply and demand... Colleges and textbook makers (to pick on them, since I've already mentioned them) recognize that it is becoming increasingly important for a person to recieve a bachelor's degree (at least), so they are collectively able to charge more because they know that whether they like it or not, people will still pay the increased tuitions, just in order to ensure they get a college education.

To piggyback off of that, what's with professors' salaries? Yes, they frequently are recognized experts/authorities in their fields, but colleges are hiring larger numbers of professors at larger salaries. More and more professors are hired by universities to conduct research/write books and teach on the side, rather than the other way around. More professors at increasing salaries... I see this as another major contributor to rising college costs.

[am_vanquish]

This thread amazes me. I was applying to college less than three years ago, and my personal experience was much different than what jc is talking about. I was poor graduating from High School, VERY POOR, and so were my parents. By your account, I should have been able to get funding at any school I could get into. Guess what, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. I got accepted into some pretty good schools, but couldn't go because I still had to come up with 15k-20k per semester to go (sticker price was 30k/semester). Most of the reduction in that price came from merit-based awards, only 2 grants with a total of $1250.

I now attend a state-funded public institution that, by objective standards, is a much weaker education that I could have gotten at any of the other schools I was accepted to. I have gotten NOTHING for need-based funding, and it's hard for an incoming student to have more need than I did out of High School.

Maybe things have changed in the past few years, I dunno. But what jc has described is NOT what I went through 3 years ago.

P.S. I've paid nothing for tuition, room & board, books, food, or travel during my time in school. I have a scholarship award that pays for all of that plus a generous stipend. I don't mean this in an offensive way, but maybe if you worked harder & busted your butt, you could get a scholarship that has nothing to do with need. Then your parents' income wouldn't matter.

[jc3900]

am_vanquish: I am talking about the extreme case when you have an efc of 0$. Also, the main point is that you had access to need based grants. I will never get access to that money.