Fuel savings vs total cost calculator

**bjl584** · 01-11-2008, 03:18 AM

That's pretty handy. I did a research paper on hybrid cars a couple years ago. At the time, in order for a Honda Civic Hybrid to "pay" for itself concerning its higher initial sticker price compared to its fuel savings costs, you had to drive something like 125,000 miles. Gas was around $2 a gallon at the time. With gas being $3 a gallon, this number would be much lower. I looked into buying one, but the majority of my driving is highway at speeds of 65 mph. Hybrids don't perform any better than conventional cars at those speeds. They shine in stop and go city driving. Also, the car seemed very sluggish and underpowered, at least for my tastes, so I did not purchase it.

**Broken Arrow** · 01-11-2008, 04:51 AM

Well said.

I've mentioned this in the past, albeit reluctantly, because anything is still better than more Hummers on the road. Still... I believe hybrid technology has yet to fully mature, and people may end up spending more money for roughly the same performance as a fuel efficient vehicle with a conventional engine.

Nevertheless, hybrids and "green alternatives" are the rage right now, and no auto makers worth their salt does not have at least one in their pipeline. I especially look forward to advances in rechargeable battery technology, because I think that's the biggest stumbling block right now. I just hope they're serious about it this time.

For now, current hybrids such as the Prius and the Insight make for excellent city cars, but for folks on a lot of highways like me, a regular, fuel efficient subcompact is just as good.

**bjl584** · 01-11-2008, 05:15 AM

There are a lot of interesting ideas concerning this technology. One that I thought was good is the idea of having a "gas" station for electric powered cars. When your battery gets low, you pull into this station where they would then remove your battery and swao it out for a fresh one. It would work much like the propane tank exchange for your gas grill. The biggest stumbling block right now is the fact that the batteries in electric cars are very large and heavy. Once advancements in battery technology can make them smaller and more manageable, this concept may catch on. It will be interesting to watch and see what happens.

**MonkeyMama** · 01-11-2008, 06:02 AM

My spouse really likes small compact cars. We have a Ford Escort 2001 that gets a good 35mpg on the freeway. (Not much less on the roads).

He is intent on getting a hybrid but I am not terribly sold. A lot of these little cars are in the $12k range brand new and get excellent gas mileage. We paid just under $8k to buy his car "practically" brand new. (As BA pointed out anyway).

Of course, as gas rises, the more benefits there are. I have seen an astounding number of Prius's on the road in the last month. I see a direct correlation between gas prcies and how many hybrids I see on the road.

As for the Toyota we have liked the idea for a few years. If we bought a new Toyota we would plan to drive it 200k miles +. So would probably be worthwhile. We have been sitting back waiting for prices to come down though and waiting to see how long the hybrids really last and how the upkeep is. Haven't really done much research but have some close relatives and friends who have had their Prius's a good 6 or 7 years (bought the first ones).

We're looking at a good 5 years out still, ourselves. If dh's car died tomorrow, we'd have to go another subcontact. I don't think we could justify the cost right now. I think only the Prius and Civic would improve on the gas mileage we already get.

There wasn't much out there when car shopping in 2001, but these days there are so many good subcompact cars with small price tags.

**bjl584** · 01-11-2008, 06:22 AM

The tax credits that acted as the incentive for people to buy hybrids has expired or will be shortly. If not extended, people that otherwise may have bought one of these vehicles may stay away in favor of a conventional car. Upkeep and maintance on hybrids is also a concern. They are so advanced that many people will not be able to do their own maintance on them. It is still not known how these vehicles will hold up in the longterm either. Currently, if the battery fails it is is very expensive and labor intensive to change. Keep an eye on diesel technology. Many advancements are being made in this field as well. A Volkswagen Jetta diesel gets around 45 to 50 mpg. Those numbers rival a lot of the hybrid cars that are currently on the market.

**Broken Arrow** · 01-11-2008, 07:56 AM

I have also mentioned elsewhere that if I had to pin my hopes on something, it would be bio-diesel. It's based on a reliable, proven engine technology, and the fuel can be "grown" domestically. Heck, some people use discarded grease from local McDonalds for free. Best of all, the technology wouldn't cost that much more than any other conventional vehicles.

There are still a wide variety of issues that would need to be addressed, but overall, I think it's a winner... if only people are willing to push for it.

**mom-from-missouri** · 01-11-2008, 10:47 AM

What about the cars that run on grease? I am surprised we don't see more of them.

We have a guy in town (he has been featured in the paper a couple of times) who has one. He gets his grease free from several sources, and the resturants then don't have to pay someone to haul it off. We have given him some also from our turkey and fish fries. He drives 60 miles to work one way on the freeway (so it must have some pick up and go to it) and picks up his grease on his way home.

**Broken Arrow** · 01-11-2008, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by mom-from-missouri View Post

What about the cars that run on grease? I am surprised we don't see more of them.

Ummm... yes, that's bio-diesel.

Oh, unless you were just adding more thoughts on that.

**mom-from-missouri** · 01-11-2008, 11:02 AM

No, I am not an engine person...why do they use the tem diesel with it? I can ask you and you will maybe answer??? If I ask DH, he will roll his eyes and laugh (which you probably are too) but I don't see you, and I see him.

**Sporkman** · 01-11-2008, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by mom-from-missouri View Post

...why do they use the tem diesel with it? I can ask you and you will maybe answer???

"Diesel" is a particular type of engine that is similar to gas engines, except different enough that they need a different type of fuel called "diesel" fuel, which is similar to kerosene. "Bio-diesel" is a diesel-compatible fuel that's made from bio-fats like grease & vegetable oils, which need to go through some processing & refining to become bio-diesel fuel.

**zetta** · 01-11-2008, 04:16 PM

Even if the break-even is $125k, a lot of Prius owners are willing to pay a premium to help create the hybrid market in hopes that the technology will improve and costs will come down as more and more hybrids are sold. I remember when GE came out with the all-electric car around 1996 and I was sure that when it came time to buy my next car I would have an electric option. Now I'm hoping that Tesla motors pulls it off and has a family car for me by 2015...

**Broken Arrow** · 01-11-2008, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by mom-from-missouri View Post

No, I am not an engine person...why do they use the tem diesel with it? I can ask you and you will maybe answer??? If I ask DH, he will roll his eyes and laugh (which you probably are too) but I don't see you, and I see him.

No, I wouldn't laugh at that. There's nothing wrong with not knowing it, especially since I'm not really a car person either.

To add on sporkman's explanation, these grease cars are running in diesel engines, and although some diesel cars, especially older ones, need some retrofitting, newer diesel cars can actually use... grease as fuel with no modifications at all! Here's a link that can explain bio-diesel further.

Originally posted by zetta View Post

Even if the break-even is $125k, a lot of Prius owners are willing to pay a premium to help create the hybrid market in hopes that the technology will improve and costs will come down as more and more hybrids are sold. I remember when GE came out with the all-electric car around 1996 and I was sure that when it came time to buy my next car I would have an electric option. Now I'm hoping that Tesla motors pulls it off and has a family car for me by 2015...

Yeah... that was the General Motors EV1 found in my link, from the first response.... Quite a bit of controversy surrounded the vehicle. I think a lot of advocates wanted it to succeed, but I don't think GM wanted it to. In the end, the big machine won, and I am hoping that history won't repeat itself.

However, I am optimistic that it will stick this time, if nothing else because more than one auto maker already has productions models on the road, with the Prius being the most popular. I'd be happy with an Insight myself, but you could easily talk me into a Tesla!

**bjl584** · 01-11-2008, 05:28 PM

Diesel engines run on compression. Diesel is similar to kerosene, and a diesel engine will run on kereosene, however it isn't a good idea to do it in the longterm. Kerosene lacks the additives and lubricants that diesel does.

**atomicrc11** · 01-12-2008, 05:40 PM

One other thing with Hybrids, especially the Prius, is that somethings cost more to maintain, some cost less. On my 2004 Jetta, to replace front and rear brakes at an independent mechanic will cost about $500. With the Prius, the brakes don;t get used as much as at first the car generates electricity and only when the pedal is pressed hard enough are the brake pads actually used. A co-worker now has 100,000 miles on his Prius and he still has the original brake pads on the car because they rarely are used. Also, the cars are coming out of the factory with 10 year warranty on the battery. Most people will have broken even by this point and even replacing the battery will be about the same as if I need to replace the clutch in my Jetta.

Fuel savings vs total cost calculator