January 1, no smoking!

[bjl584]

I guess so. I am in no way advocated a state of total anarchy. I do believe that certain things should not be allowed. I just begin to worry as certain laws are enacted that slowly take away our freedoms right under our noses. No one pays attention or cares because it is so small. However, one day you wake up and realize that a major freedom has been taken away from you. Death by a thousand slices. Like I said earlier, every law, good or bad, takes away a little bit more of your freedoms. When will it end? When we live in a police state? People shouldn't have to be told by a nanny state to not dump their trash in a river, go on shooting sprees with illegal firearms, or waste water and pollute their surroundings. They could do these things on their own without Big Brother watching if they had morality, and a sense of self and servatude to their fellow man. However, we are increasingly becoming a self serving, moraless, and Godless society. But, I will agree to disagree with you. We are way off the subject of finances anyway.

[sweeps]

People shouldn't have to be told by a nanny state to not dump their trash in a river, go on shooting sprees with illegal firearms, or waste water and pollute their surroundings. They could do these things on their own without Big Brother watching if they had morality, and a sense of self and servatude to their fellow man.

That's the gist of it. Many people don't have these things, so laws and punishments must be enacted. It takes just a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone.

[PauletteGoddard]

For the states that already have this has it hurt the business in bars and stuff?

It's hurt some places, but those places were widely known to have subpar food and ambience, and were more smokers' havens than anything else. When people couldn't light up and linger, and people with active taste buds ventured in those places, they didn't come back, so they closed.

As mentioned in an earlier comment, there are fewer smokers these days. Establishments relying on a dwindling and dying population of people merely hastened their closing dates.

I didn't understand the argument "smokers are profitable, take them away and our businesses will suffer." How do smokers have more disposable income when they have to pay for cigarettes, lighters, higher life insurance than nonsmokers?

[disneysteve]

It's hurt some places, but those places were widely known to have subpar food and ambience, and were more smokers' havens than anything else. When people couldn't light up and linger, and people with active taste buds ventured in those places, they didn't come back, so they closed.

Funny that you say that. I have a patient who is a chef. Last year, he got a job in a local neighborhood bar. Within 3 months, their food sales increased nearly 400%. He revised the menu and started cooking good food, something they never had before. People in the neighborhood who never went there because it was just a smoking den now started coming for dinner and a drink. They are doing better than ever.

There was also an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer a few months back about how many pub-type places have started making themselves more family-friendly and attracting a new crowd to make up for business lost due to the smoking ban.

So yes, some bars and restaurants suffered due to smoking bans, but plenty of others have figured out how to adapt and thrive.

[PrincessPerky]

Oddly enough in spite of my libertarianism..I approve of the public smoking ban, because my theory is 'if it ain't hurting anyone but yourself, go for it' doesn't work with smoking...and yes I used to smoke. before I learned about second hand smoke, I knew plenty about first hand damage to myself, and didn't care, I also knew it was bad to smoke around kids, and didn't (I quit when I realized I was going to get married and have kids...found the guy first)

Anyway, smoking in a restaurant affects me and mine so I approve of gov't use of guns to keep it away.

[feh]

They could do these things on their own without Big Brother watching if they had morality, and a sense of self and servatude to their fellow man. However, we are increasingly becoming a self serving, moraless, and Godless society.

Your assumption that a Godless society implies one of self-serving people without morals is troubling.

[bjl584]

Your assumption that a Godless society implies one of self-serving people without morals is troubling.

Troubling to who?

[feh]

Troubling to who?

I find it troubling. Decent and respectable behavior is not determined by one's religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

[bjl584]

On a case by case basis you are correct, however, as a broad based argument I feel that there is a strong correlation between the way that religion is continually being taken out of public life and the eroding of our morals and values in our society.

[feh]

On a case by case basis you are correct, however, as a broad based argument I feel that there is a strong correlation between the way that religion is continually being taken out of public life and the eroding of our morals and values in our society.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, unless you have some evidence with which to convince me.

If you wish to continue this topic, we should move it elsewhere...

[sweeps]

I feel that there is a strong correlation between the way that religion is continually being taken out of public life and the eroding of our morals and values in our society.

I would kindly point out that correlation does not imply causation.

[bjl584]

The only evidence that I can give you is to take a look around at the world that we live in. Did your grandparents lock their doors at night, worry that their children would be shot when they went to school, watch nightly on the local news about murders in their town, etc. so on and so on?

[mom-from-missouri]

We have pulled away from finances, but I will point out,...

One of the reasons our country was formed was for religous freedom. The first admendment protects that right for us.

Now, we have people wanting to take God out of the pledge, off the dollar and we can't say prayer in school or public places anymore. (when I was a kid, if we wanted to say prayer we either went to a different room or the ones who objected left the room)-now it can't even be on school property.

When I was in 2nd grade, we learned the 10 commandments in school. Even if a kid was not a "christian", they were good rules to live by. If a child is not taught values at home, and they can no longer be taught at school-where will they be taught and by whom??

We took God out of the classroom and are handing out condems instead. We have nudity and sex on the internet and TV.
We have leaders of our country having affairs (What would Abe Lincoln think?)

It seems like we keep taking out a good and we let in a bad.

Regarding morals:::When my dad graduated, in a class of 250, they had no pregnancies. I graduated in a class of 147 and we had 6. DD1 graduated (sort of-she had an early out) in a class of 76 with 10. One reason mine are not in public school is because last year they had 4 6th graders who were preg. From subbing I can tell you that this school has at least 12 who are preg. This is a town of less than 3000 people.

Every generation degrate one more level. What will it be like for our grandchildren?

Some people don't believe in God. That is their right to believe so. However, you can still not believe in God and have morals. Yet, many don't as they figure they have no one higher up to answer to. But, what if they are wrong? By the time they find out they are wrong-its too late for them.

Years ago our minster read an article from the paper regarding a study. Over 72% of the men in a New York prison stated when surveyed that they did not believe in God. And out of that 72% almost half of them stated that was probably one reason they committed their crime-they only had to answer to man for it. So from that group at least 72% of the "non belivers" had poor or no morals.

My neighbor doesn't believe in God. Yet, she is the kindest, nicest person. And she has morals and raised her children to also. So no, its not all. And people who do believe it God don't always act it. So, it does go both ways.

[sweeps]

The only evidence that I can give you is to take a look around at the world that we live in. Did your grandparents lock their doors at night, worry that their children would be shot when they went to school, watch nightly on the local news about murders in their town, etc. so on and so on?

My grandparents didn't watch nightly news because they didn't have a TV.

Seriously though, a couple factors at work here are (1) The massive amount of news coverage we're bombarded with daily really blows incidents out of proportion. Years ago you might not have heard about a murder one town over. Now you might hear over and over about a murder that happened across the country. (2) People live in predominantly urban and suburban areas nowadays. Compressing many people in a smaller space is naturally going to cause more daily interactions and conflicts with other people -- and opportunities for crime -- than when people lived in a rural setting and their closest neighbor was half a mile away.

[ginene]

I absolutely hate smoke but if it is legal to smoke then why ban it in bars? I don't agree with people smoking around kids but in night life and on the streets, to each its own.