Dual citizenship

[shiftins]

Me and a buddy came up with this idea as an investment for the future. We were thinking about getting dual citizenship in Canada so when we are older, we can benefit from their universal healthcare system. What is the possibility of us pulling something like this off. How much work would we need to put in? and what are some problems you may for see?

[GrimJack]

I got this from the state department:

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

I think you need to work on your plan a little more.

[josetann]

In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

There, fixed it for ya. The bolded part is extremely important. If you don't intend to give up U.S. citizenship, then you're fine. At one point the U.S. was pretty strict...if you gained citizenship in a country that required you to renounce your prior citizenship (even if it was just part of the citizenship oath...like the U.S. has), they'd give you quite a bit of hassle. But eventually the IRS learned they can't tax you if you're not a citizen, so that went right out the window.

In fact, just google instructions on how to renounce your citizenship. It's not as easy as simply getting citizenship in another country. And the US can deny your request to renounce citizenship.

[josetann]

Me and a buddy came up with this idea as an investment for the future. We were thinking about getting dual citizenship in Canada so when we are older, we can benefit from their universal healthcare system. What is the possibility of us pulling something like this off. How much work would we need to put in? and what are some problems you may for see?

I don't know that I'd do it solely for the free healthcare. The US's healthcare system may get better (though it could get worse), Canada's system might fail, etc. etc. BUT, if you wanted to live there for a bit anyways, just to explore the world a bit...I think it's a great idea.

If you don't like cold winters, you could come down to Australia where "cold" is a bit of frost. Universal healthcare. Citizenship possible within four years (assuming one of those years is as a permanent resident). Didn't come here solely because it makes a great Plan B...but it will help me sleep just a bit better at night. Nice to know that if the crap hits the fan in one country...we've got a backup country.

[GrimJack]

There, fixed it for ya. The bolded part is extremely important. If you don't intend to give up U.S. citizenship, then you're fine. At one point the U.S. was pretty strict...if you gained citizenship in a country that required you to renounce your prior citizenship (even if it was just part of the citizenship oath...like the U.S. has), they'd give you quite a bit of hassle. But eventually the IRS learned they can't tax you if you're not a citizen, so that went right out the window.

In fact, just google instructions on how to renounce your citizenship. It's not as easy as simply getting citizenship in another country. And the US can deny your request to renounce citizenship.

You do not have to renounce your US citizenship and even if you do not intend to give up your citizenship - there are rules that no amount of bolding will stop you from losing your citizenship. Yes, it is true that certain conditions will require that a consular officer ask what your intent is; but there are some, mostly obvious acts that will get you 'decitizened'. You did not really 'fix it' - the point is to know what you are doing.

[Ramose]

If you don't like cold winters, you could come down to Australia where "cold" is a bit of frost.

Even frost is rare!

[neatdesign]

Me and a buddy came up with this idea as an investment for the future. We were thinking about getting dual citizenship in Canada so when we are older, we can benefit from their universal healthcare system. What is the possibility of us pulling something like this off. How much work would we need to put in? and what are some problems you may for see?

I'm very, VERY curious to hear how you and your buddy plan to go just about legally getting this dual citizenship you're thinking about.

Key word here being legally.

[josetann]

You do not have to renounce your US citizenship and even if you do not intend to give up your citizenship - there are rules that no amount of bolding will stop you from losing your citizenship. Yes, it is true that certain conditions will require that a consular officer ask what your intent is; but there are some, mostly obvious acts that will get you 'decitizened'. You did not really 'fix it' - the point is to know what you are doing.

Per http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_778.html :

"The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government."

"When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship."

"If the answer to the question regarding intent to relinquish citizenship is yes , the person concerned will be asked to complete a questionnaire to ascertain his or her intent toward U.S. citizenship.... The certificate will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration and, if appropriate, approval."

"Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess dual nationality."

So, it's the US's policy to consider you a citizen unless you specifically tell them otherwise. Even if you do something that might make them think you wish to renounce citizenship...they'll ask if that was you're intent, you say no, and everything's peachy (well, according to that official site, I'm sure it's not quite that clear cut). And if you formally tell the US that you want to renounce citizenship, it "will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration" which means...they can say no.

[neatdesign]

So, it's the US's policy to consider you a citizen unless you specifically tell them otherwise. Even if you do something that might make them think you wish to renounce citizenship...they'll ask if that was you're intent, you say no, and everything's peachy (well, according to that official site, I'm sure it's not quite that clear cut). And if you formally tell the US that you want to renounce citizenship, it "will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration" which means...they can say no.

There are countries out there (like Japan, I believe) that don't recognize dual citizenship, and acquiring citizenship in another country means you automatically renounce your first country's citizenship.

But the US and Canada (and a bunch of other countries, including the UK, which with I have direct experience) generally don't care if you acquire dual citizenship. They just don't officially recognize that you hold that other citizenship. In other words, the US considers you a US citizen and Canada only considers you a Canadian citizen. You'd enter Canada on your Canadian passport and reenter the US on your US passport, etc.

I think what's more at issue here is that one can't just "become" a citizen in another country. There are only a few avenues for becoming a naturalized citizen LEGALLY.

[snafu]

i doubt any Americans would like living in Canada. While we speak the same language - more or less - we have a totally different philosophy and culture. Of course our health care system must be paid for but instead of premiums it is primarily paid by taxes. We pay considerably higher income tax rates and about 48 cents of every dollar paid for gas goes to health care.

Most often people differentiate Canadians from Americans because we are 'so polite' and our cities are always described as 'so clean.' Due to huge spaces getting rural cell phone service is maddening and many of us are required to speak a second language. We see ourselves as a cultural mosaic encouraged to keep our ethnic identities we are definitely not a 'melting pot.'

[josetann]

There are countries out there (like Japan, I believe) that don't recognize dual citizenship, and acquiring citizenship in another country means you automatically renounce your first country's citizenship.

But then we get into the murkiness of...just because JAPAN says you can't be a citizen of their country and the US at the same time...doesn't mean the US will agree. Might make it a bit easier to renounce your US citizenship though, I suppose.

But the US and Canada (and a bunch of other countries, including the UK, which with I have direct experience) generally don't care if you acquire dual citizenship. They just don't officially recognize that you hold that other citizenship. In other words, the US considers you a US citizen and Canada only considers you a Canadian citizen. You'd enter Canada on your Canadian passport and reenter the US on your US passport, etc.

Exactly. Generally, that's not a problem. But let's say, completely hypothetically, that the US and Canada go to war against each other, and you're a citizen of both countries, and both try to draft you into their army. You're not going to get out of it by simply saying "but, I'm a citizen of the other country, I can't do that!" Ok, a more likely scenario...you move to Canada and become a citizen, the US goes to war against someone (anyone) and tries to draft you. They don't care that you're a Canadian...they only care that you're a US citizen and you must (legally) report for duty.

I think what's more at issue here is that one can't just "become" a citizen in another country. There are only a few avenues for becoming a naturalized citizen LEGALLY.

I'm confused about this though. As in, I'm not aware of how to become a citizen ILLEGALLY. Becoming a naturalized citizen is, in itself, a legal process. If you become a citizen, then you most likely did so legally (the only "illegal" way I can think of, is if you used someone else's info to become a citizen, or something like that). Anyways, the short of it is...check the laws, see what paths are available to become a citizen in your country of choice, and go from there.

[neatdesign]

I'm confused about this though. As in, I'm not aware of how to become a citizen ILLEGALLY. Becoming a naturalized citizen is, in itself, a legal process. If you become a citizen, then you most likely did so legally (the only "illegal" way I can think of, is if you used someone else's info to become a citizen, or something like that).

It depends on the country, obviously. But in many countries you have to hold permanent residence status for a minimum number of years before you're even eligible to apply for naturalization. But of course one needs to have a means for acquiring that permanent residence status first, and there are plenty of people out there willing to break the rules in order to get it. Marriage fraud comes to mind.

[josetann]

It depends on the country, obviously. But in many countries you have to hold permanent residence status for a minimum number of years before you're even eligible to apply for naturalization. But of course one needs to have a means for acquiring that permanent residence status first, and there are plenty of people out there willing to break the rules in order to get it. Marriage fraud comes to mind.

Ah, gotcha. Didn't even think about marriage fraud. Closest I could think of would be an anchor baby...and while the initial entry to the US may have been illegal, it is still a legal path to possible citizenship. Guess I'm too goody two-shoes, never thought of a non-legal way to come to Australia. Wife's a nurse, they're in high demand...instant permanent resident visa (well, instant as in 1.5 or so years...but the point is, the first time we entered Australia, we were permanent residents). All we have to do is keep our noses clean and stay here 3 out of 4 years, and we're eligible for citizenship. Wasn't that hard of a process...just lots of research and paperwork (oh, and a few needles for the medical...I do hate needles).

[onegoodman]

I am a dual citizen. I got to tell you if you doing it for saving you certainly mistaken.

Dual citizen means both countries laws are applicable to you. You will have to pay taxes to both countries, and so on ...

Beside it is not really that easy to get lol

[nimisht]

Interesting idea but have you considered that while you may be on the path to citizenship, you may have to travel and stay in Canada in accordance with their mandates. In the US, for example, if you are a permanent resident ideally you should not be away from the country for more than six months and some folks edge it down to three.