Texan sentenced to 7 days of jail for violation of court order / contempt of court

[Scallywag]

I think the teachable moment here fot everyone is:

1. Be kind.
2. Be empathetic
3. Act like an adult - racism and anonymous threats are not in fashion anymore! Grow up!
4. Be prepared. I am almost 100% certain that there will be a deadliner outbreak in the Fall.

[disneysteve]

My point with the CAR wash was not about the one employee...... but the fact it is a very low risk business that the state shut down for no apparent reason.

That's a difficult example. When making policy, you sometimes need to be overly broad because you can't get down to every nitty gritty detail and exclusion and exception. So I can understand the rule being "car washes aren't essential businesses and need to close". Some car washes are automated. Some involve a few people coming in contact with the car and the driver. Some involve employees actually getting in the car to clean the interior. They would have needed an entire breakdown of specifics just for car washes if they wanted to drill down to which ones were higher risk and which were lower. And that's just for car washes. Then you have hundreds of other businesses that would have needed similar detailed rules. There was no feasible way to obtain that level of detail in the orders.

[disneysteve]

the ANTIBODY tests IMO are much more important to let those who have been exposed and are fine can get back to a life.

Antibody tests might be the key. Right now we don't really know what the results mean so it's kind of fuzzy at this point. Of course, the other problem is the US is horribly behind in testing. Rich and powerful folks like the Pres and VP may be able to get tested daily along with all of their staff, but regular folks can only get tested if they are symptomatic. Even front line healthcare workers like me who have had numerous confirmed exposures can't get tested unless we become ill. I have no idea if I'm carrying the virus home to my family every night. I know for sure that I have been exposed multiple times. Wouldn't you think testing someone like me would be a good idea?

I also agree with you that closures weren't handled in any logical way. I think that's largely due to the complete lack of a Federal response. There was no unified guidance from the top so every town and city and state had to make it up on their own and they didn't all do it the same way which is understandable. There was no playbook. The same thing is happening with the reopening. One state is saying hair salons can open first while another is saying those will be among the last things to open. Nobody really knows the right answer and there's nobody in DC issuing any guidelines. The CDC did issue a detailed guide to reopening but the WH is choosing to ignore it. Hopefully the CDC will still publish that so that the states have it as a reference.

[Smallsteps]

[QUOTE=Scallywag;n710724]

I get that you're angry but why? She appears to have had a bad attitude and the judge got racist hate mail and threats... how is that being an adult? She was fined, and asked to say she was sorry for being in contempt and she refused! How is that adult-like to disrespect a judge?{ quote}

I am not angry just dismayed so many refuse to even walk in someone else shoes or even consider another point of view anymore.
I am sad that so many think questioning an issue is not allowed those who say or do nothing until they are in the target should be reminded many fought and died for just that right.
I would agree to respect a judge.. except unfortunately so many so in professions that perhaps at one time deserved respect but i have seen so many just think respect is automatic regardless of their attitude.
Respect is not demanded but earned and from the video of this I watched............ I was not impressed with that judge.
Perhaps if he came up with a better approach.
I guess I am old school that it could have been a more teachable moment then a punitive stunt. i do not think the higher court ( several judges) in Texas as well as the AG would have reversed this so quickly if there was real merit to his sentence.
I do not agree with any threat or hate email etc but that seems to be the "new" childish normal. We should all be disgusted with the maturity level from many parties in the internet anonymous threat type world.

[Quote] If I were the sole employee at a car wash, I'd be terrified of having to work during a shut down. Why? Because this is the perfect time for thieves and criminals - all wearing masks - to strike and police do not / cannot respond fast enough. In my area, we've had jewelry stores broken into, restaurants robbed and car wash & gas station attendants get mugged and no one has a clue because everyone's wearing gloves, hoodies and masks, so no forensic trail.[Quote]

My point with the CAR wash was not about the one employee...... but the fact it is a very low risk business that the state shut down for no apparent reason.
The state have been asked numerous times and they can not articulate why this needed to be shut down. Employees ( this business has several locations) are out of work as well as the business owners and they cannot get a reason why.... other then " I guess we did not understand you had no contact with 98% of any customer"
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who went along with this for a month plus and the only reason was summed up as an "OOPS, now you can open " seriously the incompetence is amazing.
Yes, robberies are on the rise as two Masked "customers" just walked out with several power tools from a local Lowes and other retailers but as long as people FEEL safe.... cause masks were worn ............

I do feel terrible for people who've lost jobs and are struggling to feed their families because that could have been us, up until we got on the Dave Ramsey plan a few years ago. Even now, I don't feel completely secure because we really need a larger stash of cash, but we'd have been ruined if we hadn't stopped spending like Congress until a few years ago.

I am working and most all family is still working but I really empathize with those whom are not working or worried they soon won' t be.
Yet if a person mentions support easing of restrictions and you are painted as greedy with no compassion for life ....but it seems COVID-19 lives matter more then all others?
Some have a lot of fear so i encourage them to STAY home others are aware of risks but chose to go on with life.

[Smallsteps]

It depends on the situation. One Walmart in Massachussetts got shut down after 23 employees tested positive. At that point, everyone was tested and a total of 81 employees were found to be positive. It's not much of a stretch to assume that most of them caught it on the job. Or the one Tyson processing plant where 500 employees tested positive. It's a safe bet that it got spread around at the plant.

The big problem, as you mentioned, is the asymptomatic carrier. Just today, we learned that Pence's press secretary tested positive after previously learning that Trump's personal valet had also tested positive. The press secretary reportedly tested negative yesterday. So now you've got the VPOTUS and POTUS exposed, despite aggressive testing. The fact that he, POTUS, and other WH staffers also refuse to wear masks or observe social distancing just makes the situation even worse. If everyone in their immediate circle is being tested daily or close to it and at least 2 cases have already occurred this week alone (another Pence staffer had tested positive a few weeks ago), what do you think is going to happen to the case load as everything reopens and the general public, that is not being tested, starts interacting again?

There are exceptions to the rule........... but in the item I was reading NO one but one person was sick at that worksite and yet people wanted whole place shut and a hundred hoops to jump through.
Yes SOME may be coming in contact at work but NOT all ...........and it seems to be the stance on so many items is that one size fits all.

Think of someone exposed they have zero symptoms or perhaps those who had some mild symptoms and they stayed home until better ect. and yet they are NOT counted .... the ANTIBODY tests IMO are much more important to let those who have been exposed and are fine can get back to a life. It has come to a point where through untreated medical items perhaps extreme anxiety and worry that poverty will cause many more deaths..... but unlike COVID that will not be noted on all the death certificates.

[Scallywag]

They opened up salons today in Texas anyway so moot point. It seems IMO that Judge was just a bit overzealous in his demand for her to apologize he had already fined her.

It is not a law ...It was not passed by legislators and open for public input or debate. We went along for a time to flatten a curve now the overzealous officials seem to think we signed up for life.

The lawsuits just add to the debt most states are in, but it seems to take that to get any government to realize they overstepped.
I think mature people should be able to discuss and debate without resorting to hyperbole and name calling I see from those who want to be shut down forever. I find it ironic so many adults feel we are children and the government parents ...MUST be obeyed no questions asked.

In my state many places restaurants/ salons etc have opened up and many law enforcement now refuse to enforce the overstepping some governors have taken to. Perhaps they want to be cited or arrested so they can have their day in court ... I do not think it will go well for many of the states or cities.

Each day I hear of more businesses they ordered closed that simply make ZERO sense. Like a completely automated car wash where there is only an employee on site for rare items and seldom or never has contact with customers really but that self service situation was a Danger. Some in my state bureaucracy admit they shut things they did not understand about some businesses ... things like golf or recreational fishing because they don't do those things..... how tone deaf can they be?

Some states have had it worse then others with illness.................... but Lately some governors seem to have woken up and realized they had an issue in one area of the state.. but closed and lost business in EVERY place in the state.

If wearing masks work then why are businesses closed?
Oh, that's right we were told masks don't work just so public would not purchase N95 masks, then like magic, overnight............ bandanas, scarfs and other cloth type masks are going to SAVE the day.
EVERY time I go out I see masks hanging off faces not covering the nose and hands adjusting them a lot...............but if that makes anyone FEEL safer.
Places keep taking temperatures even though the "DEADLY" asymptomatic person will not have one. So if you weed out one person with symptoms... 5 others they let pass.

I also find it misleading when people all of a sudden seem to think they KNOW where anyone got exposed .... if a worker is out there and travels between a home and job it is just as likely they could be exposed at a gas station or any other place/ person they may stop and interact with ......... but all "news" articles blame the employer.

" A (insert business) worker caught the virus and died" ............... they seem to assume the person was infected at work with ZERO proof.

If people want to wait until life is safe ... that means never.

Even the WHO has admitted the Sweden model may have had similar results..... and I saw a report from Canada admitting that there have been many deaths of those waiting for treatments since we sat and waited for the huge crowds at hospitals that in MANY places NEVER appeared.
Perhaps that is why CBS faked crowds for a story about testing place in Michigan.

I get that you're angry but why? She appears to have had a bad attitude and the judge got racist hate mail and threats... how is that being an adult? She was fined, and asked to say she was sorry for being in contempt and she refused! How is that adult-like to disrespect a judge?

If I were the sole employee at a car wash, I'd be terrified of having to work during a shut down. Why? Because this is the perfect time for thieves and criminals - all wearing masks - to strike and police do not / cannot respond fast enough. In my area, we've had jewelry stores broken into, restaurants robbed and car wash & gas station attendants get mugged and no one has a clue because everyone's wearing gloves, hoodies and masks, so no forensic trail.

I do feel terrible for people who've lost jobs and are struggling to feed their families because that could have been us, up until we got on the Dave Ramsey plan a few years ago. Even now, I don't feel completely secure because we really need a larger stash of cash, but we'd have been ruined if we hadn't stopped spending like Congress until a few years ago.

[disneysteve]

" A (insert business) worker caught the virus and died" ............... they seem to assume the person was infected at work with ZERO proof.

It depends on the situation. One Walmart in Massachussetts got shut down after 23 employees tested positive. At that point, everyone was tested and a total of 81 employees were found to be positive. It's not much of a stretch to assume that most of them caught it on the job. Or the one Tyson processing plant where 500 employees tested positive. It's a safe bet that it got spread around at the plant.

The big problem, as you mentioned, is the asymptomatic carrier. Just today, we learned that Pence's press secretary tested positive after previously learning that Trump's personal valet had also tested positive. The press secretary reportedly tested negative yesterday. So now you've got the VPOTUS and POTUS exposed, despite aggressive testing. The fact that he, POTUS, and other WH staffers also refuse to wear masks or observe social distancing just makes the situation even worse. If everyone in their immediate circle is being tested daily or close to it and at least 2 cases have already occurred this week alone (another Pence staffer had tested positive a few weeks ago), what do you think is going to happen to the case load as everything reopens and the general public, that is not being tested, starts interacting again?

[Smallsteps]

They opened up salons today in Texas anyway so moot point. It seems IMO that Judge was just a bit overzealous in his demand for her to apologize he had already fined her.

It is not a law ...It was not passed by legislators and open for public input or debate. We went along for a time to flatten a curve now the overzealous officials seem to think we signed up for life.

The lawsuits just add to the debt most states are in, but it seems to take that to get any government to realize they overstepped.
I think mature people should be able to discuss and debate without resorting to hyperbole and name calling I see from those who want to be shut down forever. I find it ironic so many adults feel we are children and the government parents ...MUST be obeyed no questions asked.

In my state many places restaurants/ salons etc have opened up and many law enforcement now refuse to enforce the overstepping some governors have taken to. Perhaps they want to be cited or arrested so they can have their day in court ... I do not think it will go well for many of the states or cities.

Each day I hear of more businesses they ordered closed that simply make ZERO sense. Like a completely automated car wash where there is only an employee on site for rare items and seldom or never has contact with customers really but that self service situation was a Danger. Some in my state bureaucracy admit they shut things they did not understand about some businesses ... things like golf or recreational fishing because they don't do those things..... how tone deaf can they be?

Some states have had it worse then others with illness.................... but Lately some governors seem to have woken up and realized they had an issue in one area of the state.. but closed and lost business in EVERY place in the state.

If wearing masks work then why are businesses closed?
Oh, that's right we were told masks don't work just so public would not purchase N95 masks, then like magic, overnight............ bandanas, scarfs and other cloth type masks are going to SAVE the day.
EVERY time I go out I see masks hanging off faces not covering the nose and hands adjusting them a lot...............but if that makes anyone FEEL safer.
Places keep taking temperatures even though the "DEADLY" asymptomatic person will not have one. So if you weed out one person with symptoms... 5 others they let pass.

I also find it misleading when people all of a sudden seem to think they KNOW where anyone got exposed .... if a worker is out there and travels between a home and job it is just as likely they could be exposed at a gas station or any other place/ person they may stop and interact with ......... but all "news" articles blame the employer.

" A (insert business) worker caught the virus and died" ............... they seem to assume the person was infected at work with ZERO proof.

If people want to wait until life is safe ... that means never.

Even the WHO has admitted the Sweden model may have had similar results..... and I saw a report from Canada admitting that there have been many deaths of those waiting for treatments since we sat and waited for the huge crowds at hospitals that in MANY places NEVER appeared.
Perhaps that is why CBS faked crowds for a story about testing place in Michigan.

[bjl584]

The lawsuits are piling up where I live.
The argument is that the lockdown itself is illegal since the governor isn't granted the power to shut down a business or more specifically determine essential versus non essential. A 14th Amendment Violation.
Also, it is an overreach of power since there is no appeals process in place.

Here's a link if you care to read:

https://www.wtae.com/article/washington-butler-greene-and-fayette-counties-team-up-in-lawsuit-against-state/32407595#

[disneysteve]

Her arrest could have been prevented IF she had apologized to the judge for violating his court order to shut down her salon again. She's in jail for CONTEMPT of court, not defying the lockdown.

For sure. She brought this on herself 100%, which is true of most crimes really.

I wasn't following what you were saying about meal delivery and food banks and all of that. I didn't get what that had to do with her breaking the law and getting arrested.

[Scallywag]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that her arrest could have been prevented by access to a food bank? Sorry if I'm misreading that.

Her arrest could have been prevented IF she had apologized to the judge for violating his court order to shut down her salon again. She's in jail for CONTEMPT of court, not defying the lockdown.

[disneysteve]

I honestly feel the lockdosn wasn't planned well - parents feel a compulsion to feed kids. If arrangements had been to deliver meals to vulnerable elders, the disabled & families in need or at least ensure that local food banks or meal centers had been stocked up could this situation have been avoided?

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that her arrest could have been prevented by access to a food bank? Sorry if I'm misreading that.

[Scallywag]

Could it though? Can you explain why a single mother is better off waiting in a food bank line with her children present than she is to cut some people's hair to be able to buy her own food at the grocery store? I understand why the lockdown is necessary, but suggesting someone go stand in a food bank line is the appropriate way to deal with not being able to afford food ignores that 1) there is risk of exposure in gathering at the food bank and 2) low income people rarely have access to transportation, and public transit is more prohibitive now than ever due to reduced routes and demand. There is no way to eliminate exposure. If you deliver meals to people, the people packing and delivering the meals can get and spread it. If you have a food bank, the workers and recipients are at risk. There just isn't a way this could have been "planned well" or executed perfectly.

How are people buying at local grocery stores, then? Or how are programs like Meals on Wheels continuing to function? Are you suggesting that people are just dropping dead like flies these days by shopping at grocery stores or using Meals on Wheels? Same thing with food banks & services similar to Meals on Wheels, including for those who cannot afford public transport.

It is not better to reopen than use local low income resources to flatten the curve because we can't prevent exposure!

[riverwed070707]

I honestly feel the lockdosn wasn't planned well - parents feel a compulsion to feed kids. If arrangements had been to deliver meals to vulnerable elders, the disabled & families in need or at least ensure that local food banks or meal centers had been stocked up could this situation have been avoided?

Could it though? Can you explain why a single mother is better off waiting in a food bank line with her children present than she is to cut some people's hair to be able to buy her own food at the grocery store? I understand why the lockdown is necessary, but suggesting someone go stand in a food bank line is the appropriate way to deal with not being able to afford food ignores that 1) there is risk of exposure in gathering at the food bank and 2) low income people rarely have access to transportation, and public transit is more prohibitive now than ever due to reduced routes and demand. There is no way to eliminate exposure. If you deliver meals to people, the people packing and delivering the meals can get and spread it. If you have a food bank, the workers and recipients are at risk. There just isn't a way this could have been "planned well" or executed perfectly.

[Scallywag]

I honestly feel the lockdosn wasn't planned well - parents feel a compulsion to feed kids. If arrangements had been to deliver meals to vulnerable elders, the disabled & families in need or at least ensure that local food banks or meal centers had been stocked up could this situation have been avoided?