bailing out the auto industry?

[jIM_Ohio]

The demand for cars will shift to who can provide them. This country depends on transportation- so maybe the laid off autoworkers start driving buses, cabs or similar. The same way the housing crunch has increased demand for renting.

People will still need to move around even if GM and Ford go out of business.

[mommyof4]

I'm really torn on this. I want to say "yes" to the bailout, because my BIL worked for GM for years, and I'm afraid his pension is on the line if they fold. Plus, I have some GM stock in my portfolio, so what would happen to that? I know, personal, selfish reasons, but I know there a 10s of thousands of folks like my BIL out there who will be in a whole world of financial hurt if GM folds.

[jIM_Ohio]

The people are only in for financial hurt if they squandered the large wages they were making. I could make twice the wage I make now if I chose to take the offer Ford gave me when I accepted my current job. I probably would not have banked the pay difference, but most automotive employess are GROSSLY overpaid.

[GrimJack]

If there is not demand for a product, then the company should fail. GM is a company that is not meeting the needs of the consumers by designing and marketing fuel efficient or sensibly priced vehicles (as opposed to their competitors). GM leaving the industry will only make room for more sustainable and technologically advanced companies to come in and not only succeed, but make the nation a better place with regards to emissions and pricing. Competition is the only way to improve a market.
Also: None of the CEO's took public flights back to California. EVERY SINGLE ONE FLEW HOME IN THEIR PRIVATE JET. If that doesn't show fault to be on the CEO's, then I don't know what does.

That's just it - there was demand for those vehicles for decades and making up to $30k per vehicle is pretty serious incentive to make them. The only thing that made the vehicles anathema was a really bizarre spike in gas prices - I would never have bought one of those pigs but a lot of people did.

Do you think any of those financial wizards that show up in DC looking for their handouts fly commercial? Picking on the CEOs for what all the CEOs do is grandstanding.

We have already lost a million jobs in this recession, if we let the Big3 crash and burn - it will probably be another million jobs lost (following the chain from plant to barber shop to restaurant to grocery store and so on down the line).

[GrimJack]

The people are only in for financial hurt if they squandered the large wages they were making. I could make twice the wage I make now if I chose to take the offer Ford gave me when I accepted my current job. I probably would not have banked the pay difference, but most automotive employess are GROSSLY overpaid.

Nah, this is just not true. These are just blue-collar workers who put in an honest day's work; I do no know where the idea comes from that they are overpaid - these are the people who created the middle class. The average UAW wage is $28.00 per hour - this works out to a little more than $56k per year straight time. Where is the large wage? How can you consider this GROSSLY overpaid? If you have a different source for your data than mine, please post your source.

[nmboone]

I was against it in the beginning, but now I'm seeing a different point of view. Thousands of people in every single state will lose jobs. This will trickle down into other areas and become a huge unemployment problem. This is extremely unfortunate. I also agree that these companies have been putting out shoddy products for years. Many now swear by foreign vehicles like Toyota and Honda as far as reliability goes. So it's a very difficult situation.

[Johansen8]

We are bailing out the greedy liberal unions who have contributed greatly to the downfall of our country's auto manufacturers.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to fire ALL of their union laborers and re-hire people at $15.00 an hour. ALL of these jobs would be snatched up by willing employees, and they could all become profitable again on their own without needing government "assistance."

Why on earth would a government HAVE to give money to a business so that it could REMAIN viable? Reeks of socialism to me.

[GrimJack]

We are bailing out the greedy liberal unions who have contributed greatly to the downfall of our country's auto manufacturers.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to fire ALL of their union laborers and re-hire people at $15.00 an hour. ALL of these jobs would be snatched up by willing employees, and they could all become profitable again on their own without needing government "assistance."

Why on earth would a government HAVE to give money to a business so that it could REMAIN viable? Reeks of socialism to me.

Gimme a number! How large a factor is the union wage in the cost of a car? I say it is about 10% of the cost of the car.

You think skilled labor should only get $30,000 per year? Greedy liberal unions - that is just a load of bull pucky. The unions built the country's auto manufacturing and built the middle class - now you are denigrating them and their accomplishments so you can destroy the middle class.

The Bush admin gave a tax-break for up to $100,000 for 'business' vehicles, then the gov exempted the vehicles from the CAFE standards; along with that the people who bought those humongo gas guzzling behemouths paid $30,000 over cost so the companies made over $25,000 per vehicle. In a free market economy, that is the ideal.

Then along comes the collapse of the housing bubble, dragging the financial institutions down into the gutter. Boom, gas jumps from $1.80 to $4.50 per gallon for a couple of months and everyone gets hysterical and blames it on union workers. Throw $759billion at the banks who won't lend money to anyone to buy cars. The auto companies can't sell cars cus no one has money to buy and it is all the fault of unions.

That is a load of bull pucky! Even the Toyotas and Hondas made with out union labor in the south can't sell cars but that is the union's fault too (somehow). You gotta at least back up your whining with some statistics or a primary source so we know what or where you are getting your information other wise we might think you are just pulling it out of your back pocket (so to speak).

[Goldy1]

All I Can say is this. I AM NOT ANTI UNION. I know an enginner who just got laid off from a supplier where he worked with perfect attendance for 8 years. They kept a ne whire who had been there 4 months and who knew half of what he knew. Unions are needed for this crap. I know folks close to me who have lost thier non union jobs the past month. My DH and one of my best freinds lost engineering jobs (non union) My union family members are ALWAYS LAID OFF. I mean weeks apon weeks over the past years, months out of the year, and they get 95% of thier close to $30 per hour pay to sit home whech they use to travel the country. These are line workers with no education. What am I doing? I have held jobs for $12 or less an hour in office environments and I hold a degree in teaching many w/o benefits. I know life isn't fair, but does it have to be this unfair? oh and I know a guy in th ejobs bank who loves getting paid for 3 yrs not working as he turns down jobs that he "doesn't have to do at the plant b/c they aren't in his job description"

[Goldy1]

ps
I am kinda neutral on the bailout. The whole thing is a crocketly mess. I disagree with hipocrasy of bailing out one but not the other, but it is over my head. I just know nobody owes me anything, so why should it just owe to some? Where is my teaching job and my husband's engineering job?

[jIM_Ohio]

Nah, this is just not true. These are just blue-collar workers who put in an honest day's work; I do no know where the idea comes from that they are overpaid - these are the people who created the middle class. The average UAW wage is $28.00 per hour - this works out to a little more than $56k per year straight time. Where is the large wage? How can you consider this GROSSLY overpaid? If you have a different source for your data than mine, please post your source.

Ford offered me a white collar salary of 2X more than I made when I started my current job. Same job description, different state and different employer for same software.

I was not stating anything about UAW- automotive companies have people making 200k+ consulting for them. These people do not work 40 hour weeks, yet they pay phD's gross salaries to do less than phD level work.

[jIM_Ohio]

Unions might have an "average" pay of 30k or 40k... but the productivity of this number needs to be looked at.

How many days off? When I worked at Ford, the whole line shut down on first day of hunting season (it was a UAW holiday) and Chrysler had the same benefit. The absenteeism was 33% before this was instituted (so I was told).

The salary does not show lack of productivity.

[Goldy1]

How can someone say 56K a year is not overpaid fo rline work? Teachers start out about 35K and have 4 year degrees plus student teaching. Nurses make less than that. Line workers do not require any skills or education. I am not even talking about skilled trade.
So maybe they do stand and lift and tax thier bodies and they should IMO get paid well for that. However, people break thier backs loading at Home Depot overnight for $9 an hour etc. not ot mention I know not all line jobs are extremly physically taxing.

Also these buy outs;when a teacher gets let go due to decling enrollment, she does not get huge lump sums, free education, contunued pay.

I am sure many white collar people are making too much to do too little, and when you compare UAW pay to that, it seems like literally peanuts. BUT comapre UAW pay and perks to the rest of the free world and the perspective changes.

[GrimJack]

And what, pray tell, is the rest of the free world? And what do they have to do with anything?

Do you have employer-paid insurance? That is a union benefit
Do you get paid overtime over 40 hrs? That is a union benefit
Do you get paid vacation, paid sick? those are union benefits

One executive's golden parachute of $100million is equal to 2000 union employees getting $50thousand a year.

Have you ever been inside a plant where a car is built? How the heck do you compare the skilled labor of a machinist to a stock clerk in Home Depot?

Why are you bringing teachers into this conversation? The starting pay for a union worker is $14.21 per hour - that is about $28,000 per year. If you want to talk about wages/salaries, please remember that you need to compare apples to apples - this means if you drag teachers into the conversation about average wages, you do not get to compare starting wages of a first year teacher to the average of all wages in the union.

Do you know what buyouts are?

So maybe the big 3 unions should only get paid what Toyota workers get paid?
GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

[GrimJack]

Unions might have an "average" pay of 30k or 40k... but the productivity of this number needs to be looked at.

How many days off? When I worked at Ford, the whole line shut down on first day of hunting season (it was a UAW holiday) and Chrysler had the same benefit. The absenteeism was 33% before this was instituted (so I was told).

The salary does not show lack of productivity.

I agree that the salary does not show lack of productivity because we are talking wages not salary. Union members get paid by the hour - if they are not there, they don't get paid. If you want to know what the productivity is - just google it, don't guess.

From what I know about that area of the country, everyone is out hunting on the first day of hunting season. We are talking about the NE of the US so I imagine that absenteeism on that day crosses all working class businesses not just union.