Student loans, law degree, no attorney job, advise!

**mrpaseo** · 09-26-2010, 11:10 AM

I believe you will have to provide a lot more information about your monthly bills. 25k income is not easy to live on but if we knew what your monthly budget is we could better guide you.

btw, it's good to hear that you have no cc debt.

Ray

**etruscansaver** · 09-26-2010, 12:03 PM

My monthly expenses

UPDATE:

OK, you are right, I need to provide more info. Here are my monthly expenses and any other financial info I can think of:

Monthly expenses:
1. Comcast: $30
2. Rent: $800
3. Electricity: $50 (average)
4. Water: $45 (average)
5. Car (which is paid off) gas: $80
6. Food: varies, $200-$300
7. Vonage phone and fax: $40
8. Life insurance: $40
9. Life insurance wife: $20
10. Car insurance: $45
11. Medical bills / doctor visits / medicine: $400 (can't reduce this)
12. Medical insurance: $300 (lowest I could get for us both through my masters program).
14. Job search costs (looking for a job as an attorney, including flights, dry cleaning my suit, long drives, etc.): $100

Credit cards: paid off, could spend up to $5000 in a month on them. (I have no credit card debt because I just used student loans instead!).

Hospital visits: about two per year, random times, out of pocket I end up paying $500 after insurance, or so.

My $8 per hour job is deadend, no chance for a raise or advancement, can't take on more hours (work about 15 hours per week now).

I hope that is enough info. By the way, some have suggested that I quit my PT job, take out more student loans, and put all of my time and money into looking for an attorney position, then worry about all the debt once I have a job. And also by the way, my career counselor informed me that with my grades and experience, I will probably make $30-$45k per year with no benefits once I actually get a job.

I really hope people respond to this and help me out! This forum is very slow on the weekends I guess.

**disneysteve** · 09-26-2010, 01:31 PM

Not to belabor the obvious, but your numbers don't work. You earn 25K/year which is $2,083/month and that's before taxes. You've listed expenses of $2,250/month and I'm sure there are at least a few things that are missing from your list like auto maintenance, clothing, etc. That means each and every month, you are spending hundreds more than you earn. There are only two ways to correct that: spend less or earn more. Based on your list, your expenses aren't terrible except for rent and medical. I'll assume that you are locked into a lease for some period of time but I'd certainly suggest that you consider moving to a cheaper place when your lease is up. As for medical, you lumped together medical bills, doctor visits and medicine and said that amount is fixed. Why is that? Are you paying on old bills? If the money is mostly for medicine, have you looked into other pharmacies, mail order, patient assistance programs, etc. to try and get the meds cheaper? As for doctor visits, is it possible to space out the visits, like going every 5 or 6 weeks instead of every 4, for example. Also, it can't hurt to speak to the doctor and ask if there is anything he/she can do to reduce your out of pocket costs.

The main problem is clearly your lack of income. I don't know anything about the legal field but is there nothing you could do that would earn you more than minimum wage or at the very least, work more hours. At $8/hour and $5,000/year, that means you are only working about 12 hours/week. Could you work more hours where you are or switch to another job that would give you more hours even at the same rate of pay? You need every dollar you can get. If you could work 20 hours/week at $8/hour, that would earn you an additional $3,300/year.

**etruscansaver** · 09-26-2010, 02:29 PM

Update 2 to Steve

Steve, you are right, I didn't list all of my expenses, like clothing, one-time items, etc. I just listed the things I know most accurately.

Income - I spend more than I make, for sure. It is made up for in student loans. My grad program tuition is $30k per year (for a one year program). Student loans are paying for that. For living expenses, I can take out another $20k for student loans (at 8.5%). I've already drawn like $3k from this amount thus far this year.

Savings - remember, I have $50k saved which is liquid. I'm holding onto it as security right now, but I could use it all to pay for my living expenses, student loans coming due, or my wife's student loans already due.

Medical - Because of life-long medical conditions I have, I must visit the doctor very often, and I require special medication (about seven different ones) to survive. I get the generic of whatever I can, but for some there are no generic brands.

Job - based on what my career counselor told me, and what I've heard from other attorneys, I will probably land a legal job paying around $40k within the next 2 years. Once I have that, I will structure my student loans so that they are income sensitive. But what I'm concerned about is what I can do until then. I can't work too many hours at my job, because I spend 12 hours in class per week, plus they recommend studying outside of class THREE hours for every hour in class (=36 hours of homework for me, but of course I never get close to that number). And I am writing a thesis and two other lengthy papers I hope to get published (which is required to happen for my degree). My masters program ends in June 2011.

To anyone out there - go into science, engineering, the army, computers, networking, or accounting. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT go into any liberal arts, social sciences, or law. There are no jobs out there. The lawyers you see on TV working for big law firms were the top 10% of their graduating class with GPA's of 4.0, whose parents, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles were probably all well-connected attorneys themselves. Ask yourself this: can you go through THREE years of law school and get straight A's? Hint: if you couldn't do it at your undergrad college, you won't do it in law school.

**Joan.of.the.Arch** · 09-26-2010, 04:50 PM

Is your spouse working full time for that $20,000? Has she considered also getting employment somewhere?

**disneysteve** · 09-26-2010, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Joan.of.the.Arch View Post

Is your spouse working full time for that $20,000? Has she considered also getting employment somewhere?

Good point. You say she is self-emplyed. Perhaps it is time to accept that she isn't making it on her own and she needs to go work in an employee capacity to up her income. Either that or figure out what she can do to expand her business to the point where it will generate a livable income.

**etruscansaver** · 09-27-2010, 07:19 AM

One more update on career

Steve et al. - you guys are very right when you say I should find another job, one which is higher paying.

But it is more complicated than just finding the highest paying job. If I want to launch my legal career, I need a legal position, hopefully an entry-level attorney position. This could be a PT position, an unpaid internship, a "paid" internship with very low pay, etc. While I would make little now, the hope is I would get a raise every year and be at $100,000 salary in 20 years.

Sure, I could probably apply for and get, eventually, a $14-18 per hour position outside of the legal field, because I do have other experience and skills. And that would help me a lot right now. But it would damage my future potential, because I wouldn't be able to use that experience on my resume to get a legal job.

That is why my current career counselor (at my school) suggests that if I can't get a paid attorney position, I should consider just volunteering as an attorney for a year, just to get experience, and get my foot in the door. Of course, to live, the counselor suggested I take out more student loans. But at some point the debt just becomes unpayable. I once found a calculator online where I could plug in my debt, and my starting salary and industry, and it would tell me if my student debt was "worth" it, ie, if I would have been better skipping law school and going directly into the work force. As I approach $200k in student debt, even if I start out at $40k per year, and reach $100k salary in 20 years, I don't think it will be worth it.

Example: my friend and I graduated high school together. He decided not to go to college, and was hired by a tech company at minimum wage. For the last 8 years he has been there, getting promotions and raises, and now makes $55k, has stock ownership in the company, stock options, great insurance, and a 401k. I guess that in total over the last 8 years, he has made around $300k in that time. Can I, as a 30 year old "attorney" who will probably begin making around $40k once I start getting paid, ever catch up with my friend, with $170k debt????? If anyone can calculate this, I'd really appreciate it.

**jIM_Ohio** · 09-27-2010, 07:43 AM

Your best results would be to lean on your undergrad degree (probably) or clerk for a law firm (for more than $8/hour).

Your single best asset is your earning power. You need to tap any of your degrees and get "in the door" even if its $10/hr its better than what you make now.

In addition this will build up a professional network for you. This network can be valueable to generate referrals once you have a law practice.

Do you have a law degree?
why are you in graduate school if you have a law degree?

**disneysteve** · 09-27-2010, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by etruscansaver View Post

But it is more complicated than just finding the highest paying job. If I want to launch my legal career, I need a legal position, hopefully an entry-level attorney position. This could be a PT position, an unpaid internship, a "paid" internship with very low pay, etc. While I would make little now, the hope is I would get a raise every year and be at $100,000 salary in 20 years.

Sure, I could probably apply for and get, eventually, a $14-18 per hour position outside of the legal field, because I do have other experience and skills. And that would help me a lot right now. But it would damage my future potential, because I wouldn't be able to use that experience on my resume to get a legal job.

That is why my current career counselor (at my school) suggests that if I can't get a paid attorney position, I should consider just volunteering as an attorney for a year

As I approach $200k in student debt

I think you need a new career counselor. It is awfully easy for her to recommend that you volunteer for a year and live on loans. She isn't the one saddled with nearly 200K in debt with no real prospect of any way to repay it in the future.

I think you need to sit down and seriously re-evaluate your situation. 200K in debt for a job that might start at 40K is crazy. You also need to pay more attention to putting food on the table than you do to buffing your resume. You are earning $5,000/year. A greeter at Wal-Mart makes more than that.

I'm not necessarily saying to throw away your law degree, but if you can't find a job in your field, find a job not in your field. You can't keep living on loans and barely working. If the job market is that bad, I'm sure potential employers know that. Lawyers are practical folks. They can't expect job candidates to sit around and starve while waiting for a law job to come along. If you have the skills to get a job that pays $14-18, you shouldn't be working at a job that pays $8. Find something better now. Hopefully, it will only be temporary until a law job comes along but you have to stop borrowing money to support yourself. You are digging yourself a hole you may never be able to get out of.

**disneysteve** · 09-27-2010, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by etruscansaver View Post

Medical - Because of life-long medical conditions I have, I must visit the doctor very often, and I require special medication (about seven different ones) to survive. I get the generic of whatever I can, but for some there are no generic brands.

Every pharmaceutical company has a patient assistance program. You can get info an an application form at the company websites. I'd suggest applying for them all, especially for the drugs that don't have generic versions. With your income, you might qualify to get meds at a reduced price or free.

I would also make sure that every month before filling your prescriptions, you take 10 minutes and call several local pharmacies to compare prices. Include national chains and independents. Do this monthly because prices can change from week to week.

**etruscansaver** · 09-27-2010, 10:10 AM

Another update: thanks

Thanks for all of your advice guys. I have never really used an internet forum before, but I have found this one to be very informative and supportive. After talking to my career counselor I felt lost, and didn't know who to talk to / vent to, so I came here. It was worth it. Some responses / updates:

-Since the legal field is so competitive now, with grads from 2008 and 2009 desperate for any sort of job, even the entry level low paying legal jobs are filled. Law offices can hire attorneys to answer their phones for $9 per hour! I have been intensely looking for a legal job for over a year now, and have had dozens of interviews around the country: in Chicago, Sacramento, Washington DC, Philadelphia... all the plane ticket money was wasted! So if I could find a legal job for above the $8 I'm now making, trust me, I would. But I just can't in this economy. That is why my career counselor suggested I just volunteer. She thinks it is my only way in.

-I think I can get a job paying over $14 or so per hour OUTSIDE of the legal field, especially in social work, teaching/tutoring, or in landscaping (have experience). But two things are holding me back. 1. I would have to quit my masters program (only 7 more months left) to work full time and 2. my confidence / morale would be shot down, because having a JD and soon a license to practice law and a Masters degree, and pulling weeds is very depressing. I mean, I've been doing landscaping jobs on the side (like 1 day type gigs) and it makes me very cynical and angry at myself, the legal field, and the "land of opportunities."

-I spend about at least 1 hour per day applying to legal jobs around the country still. As does every other current law student and grads from the last two years.

-Why grad school? Don't tell my school this, but I didn't go to grad school for all the right reasons. I mean, sure, having a masters on my resume will help me in the future, and I will make connections with people here. But really I just wanted security - the program has a great insurance program that accepts people with pre-existing conditions like mine and covers a lot of my meds, and being a student gives me more time to pay back my student loans (now they are not due until the end of 2011). When I got my JD, and kept getting shot down for job after job, I was desperate, and made the decision to go to grad school, because I just could not risk finding myself later this year with student loans due, no insurance, no legal job, and nothing to do, you know?

-Last thing, my $50k inheritance hit me last year. So on my tax return for 2009, it shows over $50k income. That is why I keep getting rejected from reduced-cost med programs, state insurance programs, and other welfare-type things. They always want to see my last tax return. Any way around this?

**disneysteve** · 09-27-2010, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by etruscansaver View Post

-Why grad school? the program has a great insurance program

being a student gives me more time to pay back my student loans (now they are not due until the end of 2011)

-Last thing, my $50k inheritance hit me last year. So on my tax return for 2009, it shows over $50k income. That is why I keep getting rejected from reduced-cost med programs, state insurance programs, and other welfare-type things. They always want to see my last tax return. Any way around this?

Probably no way around the inheritance thing. Unless you can call the plans directly and find a human being to speak to and explain the situation, they will probably go strictly based on the numbers.

As for grad school, too late to debate this now, but getting a decent job would have gotten you health insurance, too. And though you may be deferring paying on your loans while you are a student, that benefit is far outweighed by the fact that you are continuing to add to your debt by borrowing more money and allowing 7% interest to accrue. You will finish the Master's program with a lot more debt than you had when you started it and still won't have a job. In hindsight, it would have probably made more sense to get a job outside of the legal field rather than doing the Master's program (or working full time and getting your Master's at night). What would I do at this point with only 7 months left to the program? If there is a high probability that getting the degree will help you get a job, I'd stick it out and just seek a higher paying, more hours part time job until then. If the added degree really won't make much difference in the job search, I'd seriously consider dropping out and finishing later if ever. What I wouldn't do is to continue racking up more and more debt to get a degree that isn't going to pay off in the end. Lousy situation to be in but at some point, you need to cut your losses and move on.

**jIM_Ohio** · 09-27-2010, 11:48 AM

I agree you should get your masters if its 7 months away, but step back and look at what you can do, and focus on small issues, not the big ones. The big solution might be a sum of the small ones.

For example health insurance is an issue, solution is get a job with health insurance (for example)
Another example is you have 3 degrees which are employable...
1) your under grad degree (what is it?)
2) your law degree (what did you specialize in?)
3) your masters degree (what did you get this in)?

Here are jobs I would look for in 7 months

1) HS teacher- you are overqualified for this, but you would get benefits and make about 30k per year maybe. More importantly you would have an "in" with school district, and I am sure higher up in the organization having a lawyer helps (negotiating union contracts, benefits administration).

2) Human resources. This field is rippled with laws which employers need to navigate. Hiring laws, firing laws, interpreting the new Obamacare and how it impacts both employees and employers. Your law degree and law background helps you understand these things.

3) Politics and Lobbying. Find something which interests you (subject matter) and peruse all classified in the DC metro area. Pharma companies need people to understand new legislation, advertisers get new laws passed as to what they cannot do, tax laws change yearly. Find a field which interests you, and get employed in that field.

4) Sales- many sales jobs just want motivated people. If you are interested in something, try selling it. Might be investments, might be toilet paper, might be pharmaceuticals.

5) keep looking, keep digging. If you dig deep enough you will find something outside of law which might be related to a personal interest which would bring in income.

6) Create your own law firm- do things like real estate law, wills, powers of attorney- everyone needs that stuff and you can probably sustain a life doing that more than pulling weeds.

**etruscansaver** · 09-28-2010, 11:14 AM

Thanks Jim

Thank you Jim for your list of jobs I might be able to do. You are right, I may have been too narrowly focuses on being an "attorney." With my degrees, especially with my JD, jobs that deal with the law often, but ones not requiring an attorney, I can do those. I bet there is an insurance company, real estate company, or industry lobbying position out there that wishes they had someone with legal knowledge, but do not want to create an attorney position to carry it out. Maybe they just want someone who can navigate they laws for them.

So I may just focus on those jobs and see what happens. A new direction couldn't hurt me, right? I mean, for over a year I have been searching for an attorney position at a law firm, which has gotten me nowhere. This weekend I am going to sit down and go through non-attorney jobs where a JD would be valuable, and see where that takes me. I'm a lot more hopeful now.

The only danger: I hope I do not get locked into a nonattorney position for life. My dream is to become an attorney. Who would a law firm rather hire, a guy with 5 years experience as an attorney or one with 5 years experience in another field where he only used his JD but not his license to practice? Obviously the job would go to the attorney, and not the slightly-legal type job guy. But such a job would be good for me to build up money and confidence in, solve my immediate problems, get health insurance after I graduate, and could serve as a jumping off point to land an attorney position if I got to know the right people.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Student loans, law degree, no attorney job, advise!