Need some helpful thoughts/ideas please, helping a relative

[frugalfarmwife]

Ok, first of all NO we are not bailing her out as it will NOT make her face the reality. Second of all hubby and I ARE on the same page, we're secure and our marriage/finances will be fine. We're just at wits end and need outside thoughts and ideas that we may not have come up with.

The problem, the MIL, NOTHING is her fault, it's all "Woulda,coulda,shoulda". Other family is NO help, they've compounded the problem immensely and if THIS outsider had her way they'd be in deep doo-doo for what they've done, but that's neither here nor there.

MIL has just gone through chapter 7, finishing a chapter 13 now, I don't even want all the details or tears that go with that. She's also working as an independant contractor when CLEARLY she should be an employee, so no taxes etc taken out and she hasn't put a penny back to cover this. (Hubby basically told her "you think bankruptcy is bad, you do NOT want the IRS on you").

We NEED to find a way to wake her up to the fact that she HAS to do something NOW! She's burying her head, blowing $500 a month plus on groceries because her other son brings his daughters every weekend for his custody, pays for all their needs, cleans up after them and exhausts herself.

She now FEELS she's earned a "vacation" because of this, she wants to go 2 states away to visit a friend. The problem with this (yes, there are MANY problems, but the biggest one) she just totalled her car, not "her fault", the driver in front of her "stopped to fast"

Now, she HAS to have a car, HAS to get to and from work, it's mandatory. We have found her a good car and will "loan" her the difference (I know consider the money a gift with no expectations of ever seeing it again). This will be our first and ONLY time helping out, she knows it.

She has MORE than enough income to cover things, but it blows out of her hands quicker than it comes in. I'm the "outsider" in the family, she and I have had the "you HAVE TO" talk, I'm more than blunt and honest, and WILL state my mind on things. We just had the "do you WANT it or do you NEED it lesson for the first time in her life.

So, how would YOU deal with this, we ARE the last resort for advice/help, hubby is her favorite kid, the other kids have bled her dry and continue to use her.

If something isn't done she'll end up living in a cardboard box, she knows she will NOT move in with us.

Thoughts? Go ahead and throw them out there, I need fresh ideas/input.

ff

[frugalfarmwife]

BTW, heading out to the garden to take the frustrations out on the weeds, lol, so not ignoring anyone

[Broken Arrow]

You can crunch an expense report for her to look at. If you tally up all of her current and impending expenses, and if they're printed in big enough red numbers, maybe that will wake her up and realize how much in the hole she is going to be in.

Otherwise, I find it very interesting to see how so much of personal finance is, in fact, psychological. Because, numerically, it's pretty simple to figure out when people can or can not afford something. But this isn't about that, is it? Perhaps this is more about what she feels she is entitled to, regardless of what the numbers say.

Finally, there may not be a whole lot you can do in the end. Perhaps this is something she may have to experience and learn the hard way....

BTW, heading out to the garden to take the frustrations out on the weeds, lol, so not ignoring anyone

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That's a good idea.

[jpg7n16]

I think she's still in a mindset of "I must pay for things for my children."

Maybe she's trying to maintain the good memories she has of raising her children by continuing to spend money on them for things. That way she feels as though she's still connected. She's not able to move into "I've raised my children well and they are capable of taking care of themselves" mode.


I'm really not sure whether I should suggest seeking out a financial advisor, or a counselor. Because like BA said, it's so psychological.

Have you considered going with her to a financial advisor in your area?? Maybe hearing the same words from a professional will mean something different. But sadly, maybe not.

[swanson719]

Your MIL and my MIL must know each other. I think the only major difference is that my wife is an only child. My MIL still doesn't let us pay for anything for her unless it's a birthday, christmas, etc.

My wife was accustomed to not having to pay for anything, ever. Until we were engaged when DW was 23, my MIL was still paying her car note, gas, insurance, groceries, rent, utilities, etc. My wifes only expense was her credit card, which she used when she went out with friends. After we got engaged, I put an end to that. I was not about to live off my in-laws.

Point being, I think that at this point it would be easier to talk to your husbands siblings about not taking any more money from your MIL instead of getting her to stop giving them money. They have to realize that their using your MIL as an ATM machine has led to her two bankruptcies and that they will be paying for her to live with them in the future as a result.

[frugalfarmwife]

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas, yes she still wants to care for her "kids", but they now range from 32 to 42 years old, are well employed and SHOULD be able to care for themselves. The eldest (my hubby) and I have done it on our own, never ask for a handout and tried to stay out of her finances over the years. The other two will and have taken all they can get to the tune of MANY thousands of dollars, honestly they are a good part of the reason for her bankruptcies. I actually had it out with the youngest a few years ago, he blamed US for not stopping her from spending/giving the money to them, yep. it's all our fault the bank of mom is running dry for them.

I've been VERY blunt with her this last week about where she's going to end up if things don't change and it's NOT living with us She now knows I'm a mean old mizer with her son and that he doesn't spend without talking to me first.

The biggest problem is she will NOT look at the long term, she sticks her fingers in her ears and goes "lalalalala".

Her FIRST question when I told her about the car we found was if it would make the trip she wants to make, not the mileage, make, etc, etc. In fact, when she told me the other night she wanted to go I commented "wow, a vacation? We don't know what a day off the farm is, our last time away was 12 years ago" her comment was "well you should get out, you need it.

Putting it all in black and white and RED would probably help, hubby and I will talk about that and get a rough outline. As for a financial advisor, she can still walk away from them and say "yeah but" which is a family favorite.

Don't missunderstand, I do LOVE her dearly, she is a sweet lady and did a pretty good job raising hubby, with my additional 20 years of training he's just about where I want him , but lordy that entitlement feeling that's been bred into them is something else!!! I can't be in the same room with more than two from that family for more than 10 minutes without choking on what I want to say.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

If she has enough money to cover all her responsibilities, that's what should be done, as you really are saying. I know it must be insanely frustrating.

However, does she have a house that is being protected in bankruptcy? If so, I would consider pressing her to sell it and move to an apartment just shy of that cardboard box, preferably something so close to work that she can get there without a car. Can she walk? A mile or two to walk is doable if she is healthy, and in fact helps keep people healthy. Maybe she could rent a studio or a room in someone's house. That way she has no space to have over the grandkids & come up with their meals and provide their support for the weekend. If she sells the house, that will give her money to pay tax obligations. She could set up a fund for herself, money to be doled out a little at a time with somebody else in control of it.

If she is a renter, perhaps she needs to put herself on the doorstep(s) of her adult kids who have taken advantage of her inability to handle her money.

I would not feel bad about helping her find solutions that lead to a decrease in her living standard or ability to indulge her adult children and their kids.

[frugalfarmwife]

She has a VERY expensive condo that is being protected in the bankruptcy however unfortunately she's way upside down on it, she let the kids run up CC debt on her cards, then got an equity loan to cover it, then they ran them up again. (We had no idea this was going on at the time). Her SS covers the mortgage ande taxes on the condo, the CC's got charged off in the bankruptcy and there's no car payment so who KNOWS where the money is going (okay, sarcasm there, we KNOW where it still goes, the boys, the g'kids, food, food and more food, etc.) BTW, she was complaining about how expensive it was to pay someone to trap a racoon for her that was eating all the bird food she puts out. (Um, I told her she couldn't afford bird food, the answer "yea but the girls and I like to watch the birds). I KNOW that once we REALLY look at it with her there WILL be enough to survive, but honestly it's a matter of cornering her and REALLY going at it. There will be tears, etc, we know that. I do NOT want to ruin her relationship with her son but honestly right now I have to push him to contact her at all, he's just overwhelmed at what they've done.

And regarding talking to the brothers, I can't do it, my mom said she wouldn't bail me out of jail, she'd let me sit and cool off And I won't push hubby to do it, I don't want to be the reason that their relationship is ruined. Hubby and I have talked a lot about this, our marriage is first and most important, but his family is "close knit" in a strange way (getting together and completely ignoring the elephant in the room).

I know I'm rambling, thanks to all for your patience, and hey if SOMEONE can get a laugh out of it more the better.

And Swanson, lol, when I met hubby he still lived at home, was laid off from work but according to his parents it wasn't HIS fault he was behind on his bills, it wasn't HIS fault he got layed off Yep, knew from the start that we were very different, but we work well together now!

ff

[jpg7n16]

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas, yes she still wants to care for her "kids", but they now range from 32 to 42 years old, are well employed and SHOULD be able to care for themselves.

It's not about their actual age, it's about her mental attachment to the idea that they are her children.

Her FIRST question when I told her about the car we found was if it would make the trip she wants to make, not the mileage, make, etc, etc. In fact, when she told me the other night she wanted to go I commented "wow, a vacation? We don't know what a day off the farm is, our last time away was 12 years ago" her comment was "well you should get out, you need it.

Honestly, so she wants to go on vacation - not a big deal. And as much as you disagree with her - you actually could use a vacation if it's been 12 years.

Putting it all in black and white and RED would probably help, hubby and I will talk about that and get a rough outline. As for a financial advisor, she can still walk away from them and say "yeah but" which is a family favorite.

But then that's not your problem/responsibility. You've tried to help and have done your part.

Tell the other siblings, that you've tried and are unable to help any more. If they think she should change, maybe they should do something about it and quit relying on you two to fix it.

[littleroc02us]

Offer advice and support, plus ideas, but if in the end she continues her way, then the only way is for her to hit rock bottom.

[frugalfarmwife]

It's not about their actual age, it's about her mental attachment to the idea that they are her children.

I know it's the mental attachment and so does she, something has to give.

Honestly, so she wants to go on vacation - not a big deal. And as much as you disagree with her - you actually could use a vacation if it's been 12 years.

Really? How do you know I need a vacation Could be I enjoy the farm and don't want to leave, all I need is here. Okay, honestly every few months I have what I jokingly call a condo day, where I just want to sit on the beach and have a cabana boy spoil me, but honestly I chose this life and for the most part really enjoy it, time away will come some day but I can take a 5 minute vacation just watching the hawks, eagles, horses, cows, chickens, etc.

And do you REALLY think she deserves a vacation when she can't pay her bills? Really? Not argueing just asking, because in my book if you want a vacation you should have the funds to pay for it before you take off, not knowingly having someone else front the money for a car for you because you don't have 2 nickles to rub together. (No, I'm NOT bitter here, just honestly being realistic).


But then that's not your problem/responsibility. You've tried to help and have done your part.

But that's the thing, we're just ABOUT to try to help for the first time so trying to realistically figure how much, what way, what involvement.

Tell the other siblings, that you've tried and are unable to help any more. If they think she should change, maybe they should do something about it and quit relying on you two to fix it.

We haven't tried, yet, we're just starting now. As for the other siblings, not my problem, hubby will eventually talk to them about this in his own time/way. They are not relying on us, they have accused before but we just let it roll off.

We're just looking at any way to handle this that anyone can think of.

I'm not going to let it bunge me, I'm secure in my life/home but don't want to see her destitute.

ff

[jpg7n16]

I never said anything about "deserves" - I just said wants. In relation to why the 1st thing she asked about the car was "will it make the trip?" That's a logical question for someone who really wants a vacation. So that's not a big deal.

Sorry - with all the caps and emphasis and all, you made it seem as though you've done a lot so far. I didn't get that you were just starting.

Which in that case - you should absolutely see a financial advisor in your area. You wrote that idea off like you'd tried similar things before that didn't get through to her. But you don't really know how she'll respond. You're just guessing right now.

This site: Home Page - NAPFA - The National Association of Personal Financial Advisors has a planner search you can use to find a fee-only planner in your area. They'd be able to sit with her to discuss where she is, what she'd like to do, and how to do it. And then it would be coming from a professional, not a "mean old mizer" (your words)

It's worth a shot.

[frugalfarmwife]

jpg,

Thanks, didn't mean to make you feel like you had to apologize I'm a pretty sarcastic person and yes, facing this in an interesting way. Mom and I just had the first REAL conversation about this last week, in the past we lightly tried to advise her and it went right out the window so we backed off and just did our annual visit. (sad, she only lives an hour away). It had gotten to the point that hubby didn't even want to call her at all knowing that things were going on, I'd gotten to the point of really pushing him to call her every month or so, he loves her dearly but honestly even he was putting his head in the sand, it was causing him to not be "him".

It was when she finally called last week and she and I talked for 3 hours that a lot of it came pouring out, she finally opened up honestly where she was. We were pretty darn frank and I was pretty darn blunt, it was needed and she knows I'll be that way.

Call me strange, her thought concept is so foriegn to me that I can't comprehend it. She was very open, and so was I, discussing money, finance, family backgrounds. After the call I discussed the car problem with hubby, I was the one that came up with helping her out. But then when she called last night and her main concern was the trip it blew us both away, luckily we could laugh about it.

I know she won't change overnight, I know we can't wave a magic wand and make it all go away. I just know that this time there's no back door for her. I'm just looking I guess to see how others would handle this situation.

Another side funny, she thought I was from a rich family True, my brothers are very wealthy but it's their own doing, I'm proud of them! My mom raised us, she actually lives well on SS, her house is paid off and so is her car but she's NOT wealthy, she's frugal. Hubby and I are farmers, we're land rich and cash poor, that's the way of life for farmers We have our fun but have the cash up front for it

ff