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    #31
    Originally posted by kork13 View Post

    That just leads me to question "what's the point"? Yes, everyone has opportunities not available to some group of others. Should we feel guilty about that fact? (Assuredly no.) It's impossible to wholesale transfer one's opportunities to someone(s) else. Trying to do so on an individual level merely creates more evil "privileged" people, and changing circumstances for a large group is essentially rewriting the fabric of a society and all but impossible (not to mention the human resistance to change).

    In my opinion, people just need to recognize & be grateful for the good they have in life, then do something with it. Bemoaning the unchangeable is pointless.

    Alot of this discussion feels like pissing in the wind....
    110% what BS said. Privilege isn't a bad word. It isn't an insult, and no one is asking you to feel guilty about it. Recognizing you have privilege doesn't downplay your work ethic or accomplishments, but suggesting that everyone begins at the same starting line with the same advantages and disadvantages is just plain ignorant.

    The thing that really kills me is people who don't see the overarching societal benefit to providing everyone the opportunity to get ahead. Letting the poor earn a living wage doesn't take away from the success of the rich, it means we all work together to create more and bigger. There isn't a cap on earnings and success. The more successful we are as a society, the less we need to spend on things like jails, substance abuse, subsidized housing, food assistance and other public services and the more we can pump into fully funded public schools, subsidized higher education, mental health care and GROWTH. Instead of spending public funding on punishing people, why don't we create opportunities? It has been proven time and time again that when a person's basic necessities are met without struggle domestic and child violence decreases, drug abuse and alcoholism decrease, crime decreases... I will never understand the viewpoint where people think those living in poverty don't want the opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their families and that their actions are manipulative and not created out of a system of oppression that limits their ability to get ahead.
    Last edited by riverwed070707; 08-01-2020, 10:32 AM.

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      #32
      Originally posted by kork13 View Post

      That just leads me to question "what's the point"? Yes, everyone has opportunities not available to some group of others. Should we feel guilty about that fact? (Assuredly no.) It's impossible to wholesale transfer one's opportunities to someone(s) else. Trying to do so on an individual level merely creates more evil "privileged" people, and changing circumstances for a large group is essentially rewriting the fabric of a society and all but impossible (not to mention the human resistance to change).

      In my opinion, people just need to recognize & be grateful for the good they have in life, then do something with it. Bemoaning the unchangeable is pointless.

      Alot of this discussion feels like pissing in the wind....
      riverwed already gave an excellent answer and I agree with everything they said.

      The problem in this country, which I've said over and over again, is too many people want to blame poverty on the poor. They want to believe that the poor are poor simply due to their own bad choices and if they really wanted to, they could magically fix everything and be middle class. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. There are long-standing systemic problems that keep people from advancing. Is it 100% impossible? No, but it's damn close.
      Steve

      * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
      * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
      * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by kork13 View Post
        Alot of this discussion feels like pissing in the wind....
        It's only pissing in the wind until the day when we can all get on the same page and agree to address it. That means our elected officials, regardless of party affiliation, working together to improve the system. There are plenty of good examples around the world to use as a guide. We need universal health care. We need universal pre-K. We need better school funding (it can't be mostly from property taxes because the poor neighborhoods always suffer as a result). We need to address racial segregation (which the Trump administration just took a giant step backwards on). We need to improve access to mental health care. We need to seriously consider a universal basic income. We need police reform. We need to decriminalize marijuana. The list goes on and on.

        Steve

        * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
        * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
        * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

        Comment


          #34
          I'm sorry that my opinion doesn't fit within the echo chamber that has been built here. I'm not a card carrying social justice warrior -- I believe wholeheartedly in self-determination, and in positive action... Not in blaming others for my own problems. The funny thing is that I actually agree a great deal with you about the need to improve conditions for people across the country.

          I think it might be best that I not participate in any more of these social topic threads, at least until the election is past & perhaps some of the raw partisanship has calmed down a bit...
          "Praestantia per minutus" ... "Acta non verba"

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by ~bs View Post

            I would agree that the military is one avenue towards making something better of yourself, under the assumption that you qualify to join and aren't barred due to circumstances that commonly plague the common poor including felony arrests, drug usage, poor nutrition and obesity, low mental aptitude, illegal alien status, etc..
            You present this as if it is a forgone conclusion that because folks are poor, they will be in one of the above categories. Is this really the baseline?
            But, I think you are correct that the military is not as easy to join as it once was--this doesn't just apply to folks who are poor.


            Originally posted by ~bs View Post
            Also under the assumption that you aren't killed or crippled by the demands of serving.
            To your point--and not even considering the combat component, some specialties have extraordinary physical demands. It is very difficult job--Long hours, lots of self sacrifice and lots of responsibility (at a very young age) topping the list. Very few folks stay for a full retirement--one of the reasons listed for revamping the retirement system.

            When DH and I visited Ft. Benning a few years back, we notice a chiropractic practice located right next door to one of the military supply stores. It probably wasn't a coincidence--one stop shopping. Army Infantry seems to be a pretty popular MOS, but the physical requirements are very taxing-- Just carrying around a ruck sack and equipment.
            "Today’s soldier is heavily burdened. A 2003 battlefield combat load study found average fighting loads ranging by position from 53 pounds to 81 pounds.21 The average approach march load was 102 pounds,22 consistent with other average weights of around 90 pounds when a rucksack is included.23 These weights, heavy as they are, may be increasing over time. A 2007 Marine study revealed an average load of 97 to 135 pounds in combat.24 A 2017 Government Accountability Office report identified Marine loads of 90 to 159 pounds, with an average of 117 pounds, and Army loads of 96 to 140 pounds, with an average of 119 pounds.25"
            https://www.cnas.org/publications/re...s-heavy-load-1

            Airborne Paratroopers-a few rough landings have got to take a toll after a while--just normal training.

            I saw this article (from a conservative group) that said, "The military depends on a constant flow of volunteers every year. According to 2017 Pentagon data, 71 percent of young Americans between 17 and 24 are ineligible to serve in the United States military."
            https://www.heritage.org/defense/rep...e-the-military



            The drug category is a real problem especially because there is a disconnect between what is currently accepted in society and what can be allowed in the military. For example, a lot of places have decriminalized marijuana use. A lot of folks take this to mean it is not a big deal. But, they even test for CBD use in the military. on the other hand, some restaurants serve CBD...

            https://www.military.com/daily-news/...se-troops.html
            https://www.military.com/daily-news/...en-troops.html

            Having said all this, it would seem like it would be very easy to distinguish yourself from everybody else if military service was your goal. Don't use drugs. Graduate from high school. Work out and watch your weight. Don't do stuff that is illegal. Or, better yet--sign up for a JROTC program http://www.usarmyjrotc.com/general/locate_a_school.php
            I certainly wouldn't say--forget about it, you're doomed because you come from a poor background.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by kork13 View Post
              I'm sorry that my opinion doesn't fit within the echo chamber that has been built here. I'm not a card carrying social justice warrior -- I believe wholeheartedly in self-determination, and in positive action... Not in blaming others for my own problems. The funny thing is that I actually agree a great deal with you about the need to improve conditions for people across the country.

              I think it might be best that I not participate in any more of these social topic threads, at least until the election is past & perhaps some of the raw partisanship has calmed down a bit...
              Sorry you feel that way. I also believe in self-determination and positive action. I also believe in giving to charity and volunteering to help the less fortunate. It's only partisan if you make it partisan. And honestly, the two party system is crap and needs to go away anyway.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by riverwed070707 View Post

                Sorry you feel that way. I also believe in self-determination and positive action. I also believe in giving to charity and volunteering to help the less fortunate. It's only partisan if you make it partisan. And honestly, the two party system is crap and needs to go away anyway.
                Completely agreed with every single word.
                "Praestantia per minutus" ... "Acta non verba"

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by kork13 View Post

                  That just leads me to question "what's the point"? Yes, everyone has opportunities not available to some group of others. Should we feel guilty about that fact? (Assuredly no.) It's impossible to wholesale transfer one's opportunities to someone(s) else. Trying to do so on an individual level merely creates more evil "privileged" people, and changing circumstances for a large group is essentially rewriting the fabric of a society and all but impossible (not to mention the human resistance to change).

                  In my opinion, people just need to recognize & be grateful for the good they have in life, then do something with it. Bemoaning the unchangeable is pointless.

                  Alot of this discussion feels like pissing in the wind....
                  Life isn't equal, and it definitely isn't fair. Everyone is dealt a different hand of cards in life, and it's up to them on how they want to play the game or not play it. Yeah the debate is mostly intellectual musings. And no, I don't feel that someone should feel guilty at all for what they have, even though parents may try to guilt children into it (eat your beans, poor starving kids in africa), and agree that if you have a decent upbringing in a first world country you are, and should feel fortunate. And I do not deny that the struggles your acquaintances went through to make a better life for themselves probably means they're made of much sterner stuff than the average joe and is an amazing accomplishment.
                  Last edited by ~bs; 08-01-2020, 04:16 PM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Like2Plan View Post

                    You present this as if it is a forgone conclusion that because folks are poor, they will be in one of the above categories. Is this really the baseline?
                    But, I think you are correct that the military is not as easy to join as it once was--this doesn't just apply to folks who are poor.



                    To your point--and not even considering the combat component, some specialties have extraordinary physical demands. It is very difficult job--Long hours, lots of self sacrifice and lots of responsibility (at a very young age) topping the list. Very few folks stay for a full retirement--one of the reasons listed for revamping the retirement system.

                    When DH and I visited Ft. Benning a few years back, we notice a chiropractic practice located right next door to one of the military supply stores. It probably wasn't a coincidence--one stop shopping. Army Infantry seems to be a pretty popular MOS, but the physical requirements are very taxing-- Just carrying around a ruck sack and equipment.
                    "Today’s soldier is heavily burdened. A 2003 battlefield combat load study found average fighting loads ranging by position from 53 pounds to 81 pounds.21 The average approach march load was 102 pounds,22 consistent with other average weights of around 90 pounds when a rucksack is included.23 These weights, heavy as they are, may be increasing over time. A 2007 Marine study revealed an average load of 97 to 135 pounds in combat.24 A 2017 Government Accountability Office report identified Marine loads of 90 to 159 pounds, with an average of 117 pounds, and Army loads of 96 to 140 pounds, with an average of 119 pounds.25"
                    https://www.cnas.org/publications/re...s-heavy-load-1

                    Airborne Paratroopers-a few rough landings have got to take a toll after a while--just normal training.

                    I saw this article (from a conservative group) that said, "The military depends on a constant flow of volunteers every year. According to 2017 Pentagon data, 71 percent of young Americans between 17 and 24 are ineligible to serve in the United States military."
                    https://www.heritage.org/defense/rep...e-the-military



                    The drug category is a real problem especially because there is a disconnect between what is currently accepted in society and what can be allowed in the military. For example, a lot of places have decriminalized marijuana use. A lot of folks take this to mean it is not a big deal. But, they even test for CBD use in the military. on the other hand, some restaurants serve CBD...

                    https://www.military.com/daily-news/...se-troops.html
                    https://www.military.com/daily-news/...en-troops.html

                    Having said all this, it would seem like it would be very easy to distinguish yourself from everybody else if military service was your goal. Don't use drugs. Graduate from high school. Work out and watch your weight. Don't do stuff that is illegal. Or, better yet--sign up for a JROTC program http://www.usarmyjrotc.com/general/locate_a_school.php
                    I certainly wouldn't say--forget about it, you're doomed because you come from a poor background.
                    The factors I mentioned probably aren't a comprehensive list, but generally those would be the requirements. The military doesn't just take any warm body. Need to pass physical, they will do background checks for criminals, poor scores on the asvab affect your chances of getting in and the job you qualify for, can't do drugs in the military, no tolerance, cannot be illegal alien, pretty sure it requires GED

                    Yup, the physical demands of training/serving is exactly what I was thinking about when I made that comment. There are many GIs with blown out knees and backs due to the rigors of training and combat. The female body isn't as able to adapt to the rigors of training and combat, and just basic anatomy means their lower body sees higher stress amounts, and they see a very high injury rate. I remember reading of an incident during basic training where a female candidate snapped her femur and ended up getting discharged.
                    Last edited by ~bs; 08-01-2020, 04:11 PM.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      My hubby was US airforce..he did it because he wanted to not because of his circumstances and did it for 27 years..he learnt may things in the forces that helped him when he retired...I think there is a big disparity in what each "class" gets and does...the rich buy their kids way into universities etc...not all but some, they do deals to get their kids jobs etc where others wouldn't be able to have those chances...I think it is wrong I think you should apply for a position and be able to work towards it...and everyone should have that opportunity...but many don't...thats why there is such disparities between the classes

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by mumof2 View Post
                        I think there is a big disparity in what each "class" gets and does.

                        and everyone should have that opportunity...but many don't...thats why there is such disparities between the classes
                        Exactly the point of privilege. Everyone isn't equal. Everyone doesn't have the same opportunities. Everyone doesn't start from the same baseline. Some people have advantages, through no work or effort of their own, that others couldn't dream of having. And some have disadvantages, through no fault or mistakes of their own, that others have never had to deal with.

                        The goal is to recognize those differences, those inherent advantages and disadvantages, and work toward leveling the playing field.
                        Steve

                        * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                        * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                        * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by mumof2 View Post
                          My hubby was US airforce..he did it because he wanted to not because of his circumstances and did it for 27 years..he learnt may things in the forces that helped him when he retired...I think there is a big disparity in what each "class" gets and does...the rich buy their kids way into universities etc...not all but some, they do deals to get their kids jobs etc where others wouldn't be able to have those chances...I think it is wrong I think you should apply for a position and be able to work towards it...and everyone should have that opportunity...but many don't...thats why there is such disparities between the classes
                          You may not know this, but there's an unofficial "class" system in the armed forces, so even in the military there is not equality. The airforce minimum testing requirements are a lot higher than the marines or army. Certain MOS or jobs require higher aptitiude and testing scores. Guess who tends to score higher on these tests? That's right, middle class and higher. People from poor backgrounds tend to score poorer and enter service and jobs that don't transition well to good paying jobs post military. And that's not even considering west point, annapolis, etc. On the bright side, there is the GI bill, which is available equally to those that met the requirements.

                          The lesson is that in life, you should make the most out of whatever opportunities you are given and not overly focus on the opportunities you have or don't have. Maybe your husband had a leg up before entering service, maybe he didn't. The key is that he made use of the chances he had and worked hard through his career. Life aint fair, and will never be fair. If you are in a position to help lift someone up, then do so, but overly focusing on inequality, feelings of entitlement to something someone else has, self-hate due to not having what someone else doesn't have, etc etc is poison.
                          Last edited by ~bs; 08-02-2020, 10:55 PM.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I think that we also need to have a discussion about privilege so we can figure out how to help the playing field become more level. It's really not right now. It's only getting worse and we are losing the middle class. The wealthier are taking all gains even I think at the expense of the middle class. I think there isn't an ability anymore for people to jump between levels.
                            LivingAlmostLarge Blog

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by LivingAlmostLarge View Post
                              I think that we also need to have a discussion about privilege so we can figure out how to help the playing field become more level. It's really not right now. It's only getting worse and we are losing the middle class. The wealthier are taking all gains even I think at the expense of the middle class. I think there isn't an ability anymore for people to jump between levels.
                              It's a tough balance point for me, and its directly related to privilege. I tend to be more left leaning in my voting in that I want those that don't have privilege to get the leg up they deserve. That said, I don't want privlidge to become synonymous with poor financial choices. I don't want to pay more taxes because you can't pay your car payment or other unnecessary debt. I don't think a family of 4 needs a 5 br.3ba house as a "necessity". So many people that claim to be struggling as living better than I am because our priorities are different and I have an issue with that. But I think everyone has a right to affordable healthcare and affordable education, and that our taxes can be better spent to feed the hungry and house the homeless. I don't know what the right answer is, but I will take helping the less fortunate over growing corporate interest any day

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by riverwed070707 View Post

                                It's a tough balance point for me, and its directly related to privilege. I tend to be more left leaning in my voting in that I want those that don't have privilege to get the leg up they deserve. That said, I don't want privlidge to become synonymous with poor financial choices. I don't want to pay more taxes because you can't pay your car payment or other unnecessary debt. I don't think a family of 4 needs a 5 br.3ba house as a "necessity". So many people that claim to be struggling as living better than I am because our priorities are different and I have an issue with that. But I think everyone has a right to affordable healthcare and affordable education, and that our taxes can be better spent to feed the hungry and house the homeless. I don't know what the right answer is, but I will take helping the less fortunate over growing corporate interest any day
                                This i can agree with. But I think we are approaching a crisis either way with healthcare. That this pandemic I think some ways should push us into a system where everyone has some sort of coverage not tied to employment.
                                LivingAlmostLarge Blog

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