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Is defunding the police a good idea or bad idea?

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    #16
    The toughest question probably you could ask anyone but I am thrilled to see some other public official other than Trump to take a stand to the current system and it will be interesting to see how LA does on this experiment but I suspect it will be implemented wrong like most government programs as another form of corruption and certainly fail. I think one way to lower felonious crime is to make most drugs legal.

    There is just too much income disparity, poverty and marginalized people the trend is only going to get worse as the world automates and corporations trying to use the cheapest labor possible.

    In an adjacent approx. 10000 population rural town where the policeman are more lenient and trying to act in an appropriate manner there were 2 separate police killings in the last 5 years. I find that totally unacceptable.

    There are a few places where I had positive encounters with the police and view them as acceptable government representatives is in small populated towns where I owned property routinely travel through or worked with a very strong tax base from either corporate or wealthy individuals and is in most cases (except the city above) only dealing with petty crime.

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      #17
      The whole defund the police notion is nuts.
      That's just a crazy mayor trying to get some press and act like he's doing something.

      On the other hand ..... just like most branches of state local governments there are likely many areas where there is a lot of money that could be trimmed from the police budget to cut costs, and / or better utilize the money elsewhere.
      But if you're going to cut the police budget, take a look at all of your other departments too. There is probably worse waste out there. Government entities rarely have a lack of funding problem, it's typically a spending problem.

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        #18
        Originally posted by Fishindude77 View Post
        The whole defund the police notion is nuts.

        there are likely many areas where there is a lot of money that could be trimmed from the police budget to cut costs, and / or better utilize the money elsewhere.
        As I understand it, that's really the point - to better utilize the money. It's not about decimating the police department. It's about reforming how we go about policing society and better supporting the police in the process. So much police work is actually social work and mental health work and police officers only have the most rudimentary training in those areas. Somebody with a 4-year degree or even a Masters or Ph.D. is far better equipped than someone who had a 6-hour class at the academy. So maybe a 1,000-person police force needs to become a 900-person force with 100 new civilian employees trained and experienced in the types of issues the police regularly have to deal with.

        I've only read a tiny bit about this over the past day or two so I may be over-simplifying it, but that's what I got from what I did read.
        Steve

        * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
        * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
        * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

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          #19
          Originally posted by disneysteve View Post

          As I understand it, that's really the point - to better utilize the money. It's not about decimating the police department. It's about reforming how we go about policing society and better supporting the police in the process. So much police work is actually social work and mental health work and police officers only have the most rudimentary training in those areas. Somebody with a 4-year degree or even a Masters or Ph.D. is far better equipped than someone who had a 6-hour class at the academy. So maybe a 1,000-person police force needs to become a 900-person force with 100 new civilian employees trained and experienced in the types of issues the police regularly have to deal with.

          I've only read a tiny bit about this over the past day or two so I may be over-simplifying it, but that's what I got from what I did read.
          Los Angeles county department of mental health is currently doing as disneysteve illustrated. It's called the psychiatric mobile response team (PMRT) where 24/7 a masters or doctorate level social worker assists the police in evaluating a person possibly needing an involuntary psychiatric hold, referred to as a 5150 hold. But still the thought of adding more social workers to replace police officers scares me.

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            #20
            Originally posted by QuarterMillionMan View Post

            Los Angeles county department of mental health is currently doing as disneysteve illustrated. It's called the psychiatric mobile response team (PMRT) where 24/7 a masters or doctorate level social worker assists the police in evaluating a person possibly needing an involuntary psychiatric hold, referred to as a 5150 hold. But still the thought of adding more social workers to replace police officers scares me.
            If the social worker is able to help de-escalate a situation, with appropriate police back up, and get the individual some much-needed help, where's the problem? More police officers doesn't automatically equate to better policing or lower crime rates.
            Steve

            * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
            * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
            * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

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              #21
              Originally posted by disneysteve View Post

              If the social worker is able to help de-escalate a situation, with appropriate police back up, and get the individual some much-needed help, where's the problem? More police officers doesn't automatically equate to better policing or lower crime rates.
              except you wont have the extra police there to support the worker and seriously they are already over worked...you would just be adding a few people to an already overworked group (SW & MH workers) but if you don't have the facilities to house these people to get the help they need like affordable rehabs/physc hospital etc...it is just a waste of time...good concept I just don't think it will work, you would be taking the police and making them babysitters for others rather than doing their jobs on the street

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                #22
                I would never want to be a police officer. Super high stress, your life on the line every day, most working a second job to make ends meat, and put in situations where you have to make a life or death decision in a tenth of a second. That decision could effect the rest of your life. And a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks who have never had a gun pointed at them or who have never had to discharge a weapon at an aggressor are busy scrutinizing every move that they make. I feel for officers, but I would never want the job.

                Defunding the police sounds like an awful shortsighted and purely political move that is going to come back and bite them in the behind.
                If a doctor engages in illegal behavior that causes a patient to die the response isn't to close down the entire hospital.
                If a soldier kills someone in cold blood the military isn't defunded and shut down.
                I think everyone needs to stop and think before simply reacting due to emotions.

                Police aren't perfect, more training might be needed, but most of these people shouting and protesting will have zero qualms about dialing 911 if they ever end up being robbed or assaulted. The police might have their problems, but they are often the first line and the only line of defense that a lot of people have. Love them or hate them, that's just how it is.
                Last edited by bjl584; 06-08-2020, 03:14 AM.
                Brian

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                  #23
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWcKWr8z3Sk

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                    #24
                    Here's one article discussing this concept.

                    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/wh...rnd/index.html

                    Here's another about how Camden, NJ reformed their police department. I worked in Camden for 17 years and live just a few miles away.

                    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...urce=applenews
                    Steve

                    * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                    * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                    * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by disneysteve View Post
                      Here's one article discussing this concept.

                      https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/wh...rnd/index.html

                      Here's another about how Camden, NJ reformed their police department. I worked in Camden for 17 years and live just a few miles away.

                      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...urce=applenews
                      I was about to come and quote the instance of Camden as well. Police have actually done some good there (after the department was reformed).

                      Also - for those calling to completely defund the police... do they not understand that would result in complete lawlessness? That not everyone is a good person and that that would just open more doors for even more terrible things to happen?

                      I've been on both sides of police interaction. There was a time where I was a victim of a violent assault and happy to have them there to help. I have also been in the car while they harassed my husband over a taillight being out and got overly (and unnecessarily) aggressive with him. I'm all for reform and change - but the police are a necessary evil in society. Unfortunately, we don't live in a utopia where everyone follows the rules, does what they are supposed to, and doesn't hurt others.

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                        #26
                        The actual term "defund the police" needs to disappear as it's very misleading and inflammatory in itself. The reform efforts aren't about abolishing police forces. It's about making changes that would actually help the police function more safely and effectively, de-escalate tensions, and better fund and staff programs that could, over time, actually reduce crime. That's what Camden has accomplished. It didn't happen overnight and they did disband their entire police department and start over again from scratch but the results are impressive.
                        Steve

                        * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                        * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                        * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by disneysteve View Post
                          The actual term "defund the police" needs to disappear as it's very misleading and inflammatory in itself. The reform efforts aren't about abolishing police forces. It's about making changes that would actually help the police function more safely and effectively, de-escalate tensions, and better fund and staff programs that could, over time, actually reduce crime. That's what Camden has accomplished. It didn't happen overnight and they did disband their entire police department and start over again from scratch but the results are impressive.
                          I definitely understand that is the ultimate underlying goal... but what about the departments who have officers resigning in droves?

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by amastewa93 View Post

                            what about the departments who have officers resigning in droves?
                            If they are resigning to "support" the bad behavior of their colleagues, I'd say good riddance to them. Replace them with new recruits willing to follow the rules and treat people appropriately.
                            Steve

                            * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                            * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                            * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              I like the idea of reforming the police department and i think the sort of jobs they are hiring for are what many people go to school for years for with enormouse student loan debt and then not many jobs or pay to it back. This sounds like a way to forgive the debt but still help public.
                              LivingAlmostLarge Blog

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                                #30
                                https://www.savingadvice.com/article...e-meaning.html

                                It seems there are a few cities that have implemented different revamping programs for their police departments. But it will differ city to city, state to state, on how the reform actually works. Some places just need more people than others.

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