When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

[poundwise]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'


Another bottom-line fact of the matter is that the vast majority of private, for-profit, schools operate on a budget that is substantially less than the public school demands while, at the same time, having a more favorable teacher to student ratio and better overall conditions.

The bureaucracy and wasteful spending on the part of the government and public school systems is a large part of why many schools struggle financially and, subsequently, in terms of educational achievement as well.

Of course, there is teacher frustration and parental apathy as well. But I digress.

[Cheetahwoman7]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

I think you might be surprised how much autonomy a teacher has. I know a LOT of teachers and they have a lot of flexibility in their lesson plans.

Wow, I wish that was the case where I work. In fact, I have a meeting today with my principal so she can check my lesson plans to make sure I'm teaching what they want, when they want it, for the prescribed amount of time they want! I'm not the only teacher either. All teachers in my district have had to go through this process. Also, the administration does surprise walk-throughs to check to see if you're teaching exactly what's listed in you lesson plans.

Autonomy, I wish!!!!! Just give me a copy of the State standards and let me do my job. If it says that my students need to know the past progressive tense by the end of the year, I'll teach them that to mastery, no less. If they need to learn multiplication of two digit decimals, I can teach them that as well. I don't need a "pacing guide" to keep me on track (although I do agree, some teachers do).

Ok, guess I'm ready for that meeting today.

CJ

[SuzeOFan]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

Reading between the lines, I'm guessing you're talking about religious stuff -- prayer in school, Ten Commandments, "Intelligent Design", etc. That belongs at home, church, bible school, but not at school school.

Well I suppose we could argue this one all day long but i think facts speak for themselves.

God was once a welcome and often quoted figure in our schools in the not so distant past. Not anymore.

God is not just a figure of religion. Nor is He just the main figure in the foundation of this once great country. He is a moral guide and positive influence. He has a set of 10 commandments that are unmatched in their wisdom. A guidepost to set our lives by. His book is full of wisdom and sense. It's an expose on all human behavior. Unmatched in it's value as a teaching tool.

OK - so what do we see now that we've successfully booted him and his wisdom from our public schools?

We've replaced him with metal detectors, monitoring cameras, drugs, an increase of violence of every sort, police, guns, knives, sexuality, teen pregnancy, promiscuity, diversity brainwashing instead of moral conviction, indecency, homosexuality, disrespect for teachers and authority, cheaters, liars, distrust.....

And all those anti-drug, anti-violence programs will do very little good unless there's a morality to back it up.

....and if it weren't for the powerful influence of the many christian parents who send them to these places of education... I have no doubt we would have a valueless, moraless, and quite evil generation of lost souls.

But you don't have to take my word for it. I'm not in the minority who feel this way.

Again, I don't know about your particular situation, but I don't feel I'm paying an unreasonable amount of taxes for the local schools. Education is very valuable in my eyes, and I think people greatly underestimate the return on investment they get from having a well-educated society.

Theodore Roosevelt himself once said, "An education without morals is a menace to society."

Taxes can only go up if the community votes Yes for a referendum or the community's elected officials vote for a tax hike. So blaming the school is somewhat misplaced.

It's not misplaced if it's true Sweepsplayer. The rate of property taxes in both NJ and PA rest entirely on the whim of the school system. And as I said before, about 85% of our taxes go to the schools. Count yourself fortunate if that's not the case in your area.

In fact I think it's hypocritical for someone who's benefited from public education to turn their back on it later.

I had no choice as to were I was educated as a child. And back then we at least said the Pledge of Allegence without fear of mentioning 'under God'. But I do remember quite clearly hating every minute of it.

If my parents could afford it, I'm sure I would have been educated in a private school. Back then, children were taught by nuns and highly educated Jesuit priests. And the quality of education far surpassed the public schools in every way - on a fraction of their budget. I feel quite fortunate that I at least had 3 years of private education in middle school. Same for my children. If I could afford to, I would send all 6 to private school.

What 'choice' are parents given over their child's education if they have to pay for *both* public and private schools? So does that means only the rich can afford to have choice? I guess 'choice' is a really a term limited to only negative alternatives.

I don't like that we're wasting billions (trillions?) in a ridiculous war in Iraq -- but that doesn't mean I'm ready to do away with the military.

Well thank God for that!

[sweeps]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

i think facts speak for themselves...
God was...
God is...
His book is...
We've replaced him with metal detectors, monitoring cameras, drugs, an increase of violence of every sort, police, guns, knives, sexuality, teen pregnancy, promiscuity, diversity brainwashing instead of moral conviction, indecency, homosexuality, disrespect for teachers and authority, cheaters, liars, distrust.....
....and if it weren't for the powerful influence of the many christian parents who send them to these places of education... I have no doubt we would have a valueless, moraless, and quite evil generation of lost souls.

Here's where I kindly bow out of the conversation.

[SuzeOFan]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

Blessed is he who is not offended by mentioning the word, "God".

[kimiko]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

ummm..... I would seriously have problem if God is introduced into the public school system. Nothing is worst than having someone trying to convert and/or preach to you. Imagine how you would feel if I'm going around saying MY god is the standard you should conform too, MY god is the one you're expected to recognize and MY god is the begin and end on all things morally righterous. How about if I incorporate MY god into every single issue we all have to deal with in life?

Just because your religion is more widely recognized than mine doesn't mean you should brandish it around like....can't think of a good metaphor right now, but I hope you understand my point because it's offensive to me to have to read posts like that.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

SuzeOFan, if your school system (school board?) has the power to raise taxes without the consent of the people, you definitely need to change something in your city/county charter or state constitition to prevent that. A school board is an executive function, not legislative. And it is by having legislative bodies be the ones to levy taxes that we get taxation only WITH representation. In my area we vote on any proposed taxes for the schools. It should be so in your own district. if it isn't, make it so! I imagine there would be huge support for such a measure.

I would not want any public school supporting any specific religion--even my own. I would not even want teachers to make the classroom assumption that all the kids are or should be theists. It isn't necessary. That does not mean that the teacher has to assume and act as though the kids are or should be atheists. That isn't necessary either. I agree that our society does share some values and morals (often encoded in law) that we can agree to support in schools. But godish beliefs does not have to be in that category.

Anyway, no, our public schools here are not our "taxmasters." (Clever term.)

[poundwise]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'


I think the greatest argument against having public schools teach anything about God is that, in many cases, they can't seem to teach math, grammar, or history with an acceptable level of competency.

That's my last comment on the subject, which is now officially off-subject.

Prior to this, my comments have pertained to the mishandling of funds and budgets by the government as it pertains to public schools. Ultimately then, my call is for people to demand more accountability from those who are in charge of their local school system. That is my final word on the matter. Take it for what it may be worth.

[tinapbeana]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

best as i can recall, the whole point of a public education system wasn't to create a solid moral grounding, it was to teach "reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic". this ideal isn't anything new: check the laura ingalls wilder books.

*sorry, brief soapbox moment below*

with that said, a solid moral ground should start at home well before the age of 5 when most kids start kindergarten. if children start school without those fundamentals, no school environment can foster, create, or uphold them. even if schools could 'create' a solid moral grounding, how effective is it if it's not being upheld in the home? it's just like common courtesy: if the kindergarten class teaches children "share with others, no yelling inside, and don't hit", what good is it if these same rules of courtesy aren't enforced at home?

*end soapbox moment*

[SuzeOFan]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

Like it or not. America was founded by men of Faith. Christian and Jew alike.
This country's founding was not inspired by atheism or other religions. (Yes athiesm is a religion!)

Like it or not ....God the Almighty is an important part of the fabric and formation of our free nation. To deny that is no less than to lie.

Are you afraid someone is trying to *convert* you when you say the Pledge of Allegence? Sing the National Anthem at the opening of ballgames? Read the Constitution or Declaration of Independance? See the 10 Commandments posted in a courthouse?

History teachers who believe in God must have an awful time trying to teach history while dodging all around all the mentioning of God and 'with God's help' there is. It's more than just PC - it's outright censorship which denies our true beginnings and true heritage! And without a doubt - it's a form of religious repression in the guise of the term 'Separation of Church and State'.

If you are a Hindu or athiest or such, you ought to know that. For instance, I'm sure if I went to India and was offended by every one of the hundreds or thousands of demi-gods I saw displayed in your marketplaces, restaurants and public meeting houses I could raise a stink about it too! ...and I might also just meet with an unfortunate accident!

So far, at least for now, we here in America still have the freedom to disagree with each other and the powers that be without fear of death.

[SuzeOFan]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

Look people, God was in our public school system long before political correctness and the NEA rejected Him. He was talked about, quoted, revered and even written about in public schools. Remember *Christmas* plays and chorals?? Were any children at all harmed by it - or offended??

"reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic".

If that were *ALL* they taught, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But that's just not the case. I could write a book on just that one topic...!

[tinapbeana]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

Are you afraid someone is trying to *convert* you when you say the Pledge of Allegence? Sing the National Anthem at the opening of ballgames? Read the Constitution or Declaration of Independance? See the 10 Commandments posted in a courthouse?

nope. i'm a Christian who happens to believe it is a parent's responsibility to teach their child their religoius convictions. who's to guarantee a school teacher can teach it the way a parent would want (no offense meant to school-teachers!)?

So far, at least for now, we here in America still have the freedom to disagree with each other and the powers that be without fear of death.

i think this statement has been the point many of us have been trying to make. we all have the right to disagree.

[kimiko]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

America wasn't found by just men of Christian faith. They just happened to be men in power and are able to enforce their rules and religion. This is why I didn't like religion to be in school, it distorts the real facts. Might I point out to you that there are people already inhabiting this land before the Christian and Jew landed.

The wonderful thing about this country is the diversity, not the narrow minded society of a common culture, and as such, I didn't want people to bring on the table private beliefs of a higher power when discussing secular matter.

[kimiko]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

I agree with Tina about parents being responsible for teaching their children morality. When you associate schooling with moral upbringing, parents would then wash their hand of their obligation to educate their children. That's is what lead to this generation that is so often featured in the news.

I don't know much about the taxation when it comes to schooling. But I do know one thing. There are very dedicate teachers out there and I have the fortune to learn from some of them. They are tough, expect a lot of their students and often fail more than half the class. But the thing is the student learn even if they received a low grade. The newer teachers that are entering the schools is what I'm scare off. I remember my younger sister told me how her newly graduated teacher is teaching her to use the calculator to do a math problem that my old teacher made me do by hand (we're only 3 years apart). When the teacher is teaching that way with no accountability and with the force of the Union to protect them, how can students learn?

[SuzeOFan]

Re: When did schools become our 'taxmasters'

Alright enough said already. This is not the discussion I intended to have when I started this post.

Regarding taxation without representation that exists here in my state:

I like what Joan of the Arch had to say:

SuzeOFan, if your school system (school board?) has the power to raise taxes without the consent of the people, you definitely need to change something in your city/county charter or state constitition to prevent that. A school board is an executive function, not legislative. And it is by having legislative bodies be the ones to levy taxes that we get taxation only WITH representation. In my area we vote on any proposed taxes for the schools. It should be so in your own district. if it isn't, make it so! I imagine there would be huge support for such a measure.

Maybe it's time. But where to start?
Do we have to sue the state of PA and NJ over it in order to be taken seriously? Something like a class-action?

Oh yes, the taxation without representation part...

They managed to dodge around that minor detail by saying only taxes that are raised more than 7% need to be voted on by the people. So the schools simply keep it below 7% every year!