Free sticker from the ACLU if you believe businesses shouldn’t discriminate!

[james.hendrickson]

In case you're in agreement with the ACLU's viewpoint, here is a free sticker you might want to share.

ACLU Sticker Giveaway

From their website:

Get Your Free Sticker to Say Businesses Should Be Open to All

In 2012, a store in Colorado refused to sell two men a cake for their wedding reception just because they were gay. On December 5th, the Supreme Court will hear the ACLU’s arguments in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case – a case that will decide whether businesses that are open to the public can refuse to serve LGBT people in violation of laws that protect all of us from discrimination.

[disneysteve]

This case really makes me angry. What good is passing anti-discrimination laws if nobody has to follow them? If a store can refuse to take care of a black customer or a Jewish customer or a gay customer because of their own personal beliefs, we're in a lot of trouble as a society.

[bjl584]

It's their business and it's their capital financing it. The owner can do whatever they want even if it might decrease profit potential.

Starbucks won't say Merry Christmas. If you don't like it go get your coffee at Dunkin Donuts.

Target doesn't allow the Salvation Army to ring the bell in front of their storefronts anymore. If you don't agree go to Walmart or elsewhere.

Mr. Bakery owner won't make a cake for someone because they are gay. If you disagree go get your cake from somewhere else.

Personally, if I owned a business, I would do or say anything, and serve anyone, within the limits of the law, that would make me money. Not everyone shares that viewpoint. And, I am ok with that. Far be it for me or the government to strong arm a business owner into doing business with anyone or any entity that they don't want to. It is their business, their money, their risk. Not mine.

Voting with your wallet is way more powerful than any sticker that the ACLU is passing out.

[disneysteve]

Starbucks won't say Merry Christmas.

That's not discrimination.

Target doesn't allow the Salvation Army to ring the bell in front of their storefronts anymore.

That's also not discrimination.

I have no problem with either of those situations. Starbucks isn't saying they won't serve certain people. Target isn't refusing entry to anyone.

Mr. Bakery owner won't make a cake for someone because they are gay.

This is blatant discrimination. I don't really fathom how anyone can see it as anything else. If the baker put up a big sign that said "No Blacks" or "No Jews" would you be okay with that? You don't think the government has the right to pass anti-discrimination laws that businesses have to follow?

I'm really curious to hear from anyone who agrees that businesses should be allowed to discriminate like this.

[bjl584]

I don't think anyone should be discriminated against.

But, when the government starts to dictate who and what a business owner has to do business with you can start to go down a slippery slope.

I foresee unintended consequences just like with everything else that starts out with good intentions.

If a business owner puts their money, their time, their effort, and risks their own personal finances into a business, then who am I to really say that they should be forced to do business with someone or some group that they don't agree with? They might be risking backlash, and they might even go out of business, but that is on them. The free market will decide if they can stay profitable or not. If I feel that they are being discriminatory and are against my personal beliefs, then I simply won't do business with them. I will take my money elsewhere.

I guess I'm just more of the mindset to stay hands off and let the market decide the fate of someone that refuses to do business with someone for whatever reasons. Capitalism will punish or reward you accordingly.

What ever became of the bakery? Did the community boycott to the point that the owner was forced to change his viewpoints before he ran the risk of going out of business?

[disneysteve]

I don't think anyone should be discriminated against.

But, when the government starts to dictate who and what a business owner has to do business with you can start to go down a slippery slope.

So you don't think there should be anti-discrimination laws?
If I own an apartment complex, it should be my right to refuse to rent to black people?
If I have a restaurant, it should be my right to refuse to serve Muslims?

If a business owner puts their money, their time, their effort, and risks their own personal finances into a business, then who am I to really say that they should be forced to do business with someone or some group that they don't agree with?

So that would take us back to institutionalized racism, sexism, etc.
Sorry, but I don't think we should go back to the days where signs like this were commonplace:

[bjl584]

Where do you draw the line though?

This could get extremely complicated. There are too many groups, and sub groups, and special interests. You would have to create an over riding law that encompasses everyone, and that would probably be worse than doing nothing.

A few years back there was a bakery that refused to do business with a couple who were self proclaimed white supremacists. They were requesting a birthday cake with an image of Adolf Hitler on it for their son's upcoming birthday. The bakery owner said no. Should the government have stepped in and forced him to do business with that couple? I don't think so. A simple no thanks was good enough. But, if you craft a law that states that you have to do business with anyone and everyone no matter what, then that bakery owner would have been forced to make that cake.

Everyone might not like it, but a business owner has the right to turn away customers. If people don't like it enough, then they will stop doing business with them, and that business owner will pay the price. They might even have to close down. There is no way you could hang up a sign like that in today's modern society and have a viable business. Would anyone of sane mind actually go eat at a restaurant with a sign like that out front? I doubt it.

I don't see some mom and pop bakery refusing to do business with someone exploding into a national policy of institutionalized racism, white supremacist signage, and separate bathrooms. So, they don't want to make someone a cake. It already sounds like the court of public opinion is taking its toll. Maybe the owners will change their policy. If they don't, then the baker up the street who will serve anyone no questions asked might be profiting handsomely very soon.

[disneysteve]

Where do you draw the line though?

There are defined groups that are protected by discrimination laws. Generally, it is for things that are inherent traits, not personal choices. Gender identity, race, skin color, country of origin, sexual orientation. Then there are additional laws regarding disabilities.

A few years back there was a bakery that refused to do business with a couple who were self proclaimed white supremacists. They were requesting a birthday cake with an image of Adolf Hitler on it for their son's upcoming birthday. The bakery owner said no. Should the government have stepped in and forced him to do business with that couple?

Absolutely not. Being a racist is a personal choice. You aren't entitled to any legal protection for making that choice. In the same way, this baker isn't entitled to legal protection for being homophobic. That's his personal choice. He needs to accept the consequences of that choice.

[bjl584]

I guess I just don't see how we could eliminate discrimination like this without making things so complicated that no one could understand it. If history is any guide, then the government isn't very good at making things cut and dry and easily understandable.

If I owned a bakery I'd want to spend my time and energy baking bread, not pondering over who I can and can't do business while still staying in compliance. I wouldn't want to have my attorney standing next to me all day to help me navigate the waters.

[disneysteve]

I guess I just don't see how we could eliminate discrimination like this without making things so complicated that no one could understand it.

What is so complicated about not discriminating based on gender, race, nationality, religion, and sexual orientation? That's a very short list that all seems pretty clear cut to me.

[james.hendrickson]

Here is a quote from Milton Friedmann that might help illustrate what BJ is saying. From the 1962 version of Capitalism and Freedom.

Is there any difference in principle between the taste that leads a householder to prefer an attractive servant to an ugly one and the taste that leads another to prefer a Negro to a white or a white to a Negro, except that we sympathize and agree with the one taste and may not agree with the other? I do not mean to say that all tastes are equally good. On the contrary, I believe strongly that the color of a man's skin or the religion of his parents is, by itself, no reason to treat him differently; that a man should be judged by what he is and what he does and not by these external characteristics. I deplore what seem to me the prejudice and narrowness of outlook of those whose tastes differ from mine in this respect and I think less of them for it. But in a society based on free discussion, the appropriate recourse is for me to seek to persuade them that their tastes are bad and that they should change their views and their behavior, not to use coercive power to enforce my tastes and my attitudes on others.

[disneysteve]

Here is a quote from Milton Friedmann that might help illustrate what BJ is saying. From the 1962 version of Capitalism and Freedom.

So based on that, all social justice progress of the past 50+ years should just be thrown out the window? Anti-discrimination laws should be repealed? We've already seen evidence that there are groups who want to do just that. Just take a look at what happened in Charlottesville recently. Is that really where you want to see this country go?

[bjl584]

What is so complicated about not discriminating based on gender, race, nationality, religion, and sexual orientation? That's a very short list that all seems pretty clear cut to me.

If a random person walks into a room, most people have no idea what their religion, sexual orientation, or nationality is. If they are refused service for some reason, they could always come back later with an attorney and claim some form of discrimination. Maybe they were refused service for some other legitimate reason that had nothing to do with their race or anything else, but that won't spare the store owner from a potentially lengthy expensive lawsuit and the media declaring him a racist, bigot, homophobe before they know all the facts regarding the case. It could be enough to put him right out of business. And over what? Maybe nothing. If he truly is a racist, bigoted, homophobe, then he doesn't deserve to be in business. But, if he gets caught up in a legal and media circus, then that isn't fair to him.

There are blatantly obvious examples of discrimination, then there are ones that are not so clear cut. And there are some that are completely made up. How do we efficiently separate them?

[disneysteve]

If a random person walks into a room, most people have no idea what their religion, sexual orientation, or nationality is.

Exactly, so what basis would there be to refuse service? If you treat everyone equally, there's no problem. If you start picking and choosing who you are going to take care of, as this baker has done, that's when you run into trouble, as he has learned.

There will always be a risk when running a business. Any dissatisfied customer can sue you for any reason and you're stuck defending yourself. There's no way to avoid that.

[surfius]

Discrimination issues cause a lot of controversy in modern society. I treat everyone the same, I do not understand those who discriminate against people, because they are different in different ways. The same happens in business, it is important to be tolerant of your competitors and support only business rivalry. A friend of mine decided to sell his business of distributing holiday props, as the business suffered heavy losses and his store was no longer popular. Many entrepreneurs did not treat him appropriately because of his different skin color and offered ridiculous prices. I advised him to contact neumannassociates.com for objective business valuation and sale assistance. At the moment, he managed to profitably invest in a new business that brought him great success.