Private healthcare

[mehmeh]

Indeed, I dont think health care should be tied to employment. Partisan politics aside, I think we really need a universal public healthcare system. Tax payer dollars to fund this would be a pitfall, or another story, but the medical industry as it is set up, as it were, really erks me.

For instance, if an individual is depressed or has cancer, and they don't have adaquate funds to go to a certain doctor/specialist/center/hospital, then they will have to attend the lesser practitioner, or ignore the problem altogether. Why should one person's health and life be more valuable than another's? We are not talking shopping for banks here or products, where all is fair - we are talking life sustanance. All legal U.S. citizens, imho, should qualify for the best.

[cercis]

You ask some good questions, let me see if I can remember them all.

1) Are there charities to cover the costs? Yes and no. Some churches will cover it for church members. You can sometimes get grants from charities. Some larger hospitals will have grants. But you have to go look for it and you have to know who to ask. Something that can be very difficult to find.

2) Why don't people access healthcare when it is available? (related to the Emergency room question) They access is available, but you still have to pay for it. They will treat you without payment upfront, but you still get billed. And you will be hounded until you pay it (I used to work for a debt collector and they did a thriving business for the local - christian - hospital).

3) Does having limited healthcare make people take better care of themselves? Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of misinformation and ignorance about healthcare choices in the US. And even when you are trying to do the absolute best it can be hard to know what that is. Some studies say do this, other studies say no, absolutely do not do that, etc.

Plus even when you are taking care of yourself you still get sick. Since a large number of people do not get sick days (or work for a company who is having layoffs) they go to work sick. They send their kids to school sick because they can't get off to take care of them at home. We get exposed to so many germs that it is next to impossible not to get sick.

Healthcare costs are the leading cause of bankruptcy. Most people in bankruptcy do have some consumer debt, but it was a "reasonable" limit before their illness. Or they were laid off, used credit cards to help with monthly bills while looking for another job and then got sick and their house crashed in on them.

I had coverage for me and my 2 children (no maternity coverage) through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. It cost $400/month and had a $25 copay. There was no prescription benefit. I got a sinus infection (which I had been treating rather successfully with sudafed until OK passed a law limiting the amount of sudafed you could buy in a month and the amount was lower than the recommended dosage). My mom's dr friend gave me some samples of antibiotics which cleared it up for a while, but it got infected again. I had to spend $100 for a prescription for it. You know why I had a sinus infection? I had an abscessed tooth and it spread to my sinuses. Dental care is absolutely not covered by medical insurance even when it is clearly causing a major medical issue. I got lucky, the 3rd round of antibiotics cleared up the abscess and it hasn't come back yet (knock on wood).

[jmjj215]

Healthcare costs are the leading cause of bankruptcy. Most people in bankruptcy do have some consumer debt, but it was a "reasonable" limit before their illness. Or they were laid off, used credit cards to help with monthly bills while looking for another job and then got sick and their house crashed in on them.

There needs to be more, case-by-case research on this oft-touted 'fact'. What is the reasonable limit of consumer debt? I hope reasonable is not synonymous with common, because the common amount of consumer debt is certainly not reasonable

Where was the emergency fund that should have gotten them through a layoff - not CCs?

There are so many straws, before the final straw (health care costs) that breaks the Camel's back. I'd like to see the first straws.

[Bruce Wayne]

How many people actually have money saved away should something like this happen though?

[pennywise]

we have no money set aside for healthcare. I fully expect the government to pay for my illness should it happen since they pay for others, the elderly and poor have full coverage. I transfer assets to my children now at age 50 to qualify for medicaid should the need arise. Another prep arrangement is one spouse should never sign for another spouse. Do not guarantee yourself the payer. There was an article where a wife had cancer and the spouse signed the papers, she died, he was stuck with the bill. They put a lein on his house. Each individual is responsible for their own debts so don't sign for another. Emotions do not belong in financial decisions. So, that is how I am preparing. As soon as the dtr turns 18 the house will be signed over to her. She is being educated and I do believe she is responsible. I don't care if she puts me in a nursing home if she cannot care for me. My responsiblity is to provide for my family not a doctors family, a hospital ceo, or anyone else for that matter. I suggest you all make your plans.

[Bruce Wayne]

Surely your primary responsibility is to provide for yourself? Doesn't that mean that should you become ill you provide your own means of treatment?

[pennywise]

Bruce: I am providing for my own by protecting my assets from a system where I do not control prices, choose treatment based on my ability to shop for services. I believe if a segment of society is provided the service free then I should too. All those elderly and poor have their healthcare because I am paying for it. So haven't I paid for my health care in advance. See, Robin Hood is right, they rob from me to pay for another without my consent. Shouldn't the poor make the sacrifices we did for education and stature, shouldn't the elderly have saved for their needs. I have paid, and I will protect my assets for my daughter.

[Bruce Wayne]

Thing is the British healthcare system works on a similar system, and quite frankly its rubbish

I'd hate to be in a position where I depended on it for my wellbeing.

[PrincessPerky]

I paid for the majority of my friends maternity care (taxes), but I wont ask them to pay for mine, why? cause I will not perpetuate a wrong just cause others get a free ride. Wrong is wrong, I am not goin to turn looter in a riot just cause 'everyone else is doing it' I will not rob any other American to pay for something either.

Now if it was a stand between life and death, for my children I would take the money if no other option was availible. And I have a lot of luxuries to sell before that point.

[pennywise]

PrincessPerky: your thoughts are so interesting. Could this be why so many in America can be robbed, because the top tier in the pyramid know this is how you think. Change has to happen from radical behaviors (Boston Tea Party). I hear so many say "what can I do". A lot can be done, refusal to spend money to decrease tax revenues, writing letters to your representatives, avoiding any product or service that benefits the wrong causes. Money speaks very loudly. What the few at the top of the pyramid did was take all the money from the bottom and shouting POWER and those in the middle and bottom fail to realize they have the power because it is your labor and money they need. Cut them off, don't spend, save, and make them look to thier own pockets for their charities. I am moving money, purposefully, to get what my tax dollars have paid for. I do not believe in Socialism or Communism, Marxism, or any other system that plays Robbin Hood. Could you expand more on your thinking so I can have a better understanding why you do not resent paying for someone else.

[PrincessPerky]

I do resent paying for more than Emergency life or death stuff. DH and I firmly believe that welfare should be a soup kitchen and dorms (which you should work in to recieve) and education should cover reading and enough math to do your taxes. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not cover elective inductions, cosmetic dental work, and fancy water births. But I do think the life part covers emergency stuff.

I will not rob your tax money to pay for my second US, and I will not take your tax money to pay my bills - and yes I could get it if I asked.

I am a lazy person, guilty of not speaking out to my reps about my anger at the welfare system and all that. But I will not take advantage of it either. Course part of my lazyness comes from fear of death, not likely me, but the Bostan tea party was not without some grave consequences. I am not sure the system would be much better afterwords (imagine how annoyed George would be right now, all that death for what, a system pretty much like every other and comming closer to what they fought against all the time)

Again two wrongs will not make a right, I will not rob Americans while I sit here on my luxury computer for something that is 'recomended'. It ain't life or death it ain't your responsibility to pay for it.

Dh and I talk about how much more we would give up before we would go on assistance, it is getting to be a depressingly short list, but it is there, so long as I have luxuries I will not take assistance, and if I could insure that others gave up theirs before asking for tax money I would. (in case anyone wonders how I feel I am paying when I prolly don't pay much taxes, truthfully my couple of bucks is a drop in the pan to the govt, but it would cover milk, still my money, still being used by plenty to buy ciggs or cable instead of milk)

But then again I am not willing to alienate all my friends by telling them outright how annoying it is to pay for their luxuries. I wouldn't have any left! From the one who got mad over the govt not covering her dental after her baby was born to the couple with ciggs cable and energy assistance (energy as in what is paying for that cable to run 24/7) to the friend wanting to take the govt money for single moms to go to college. I could go on, there are many ways to take tax money, I take none of it if I can help it, but I can't think of a single IRL person who doesn't take some. Even the parents, they 'hid loot' so that the govt will help pay for gmas care. and are annoyed at the effort involved, hello who said 'guaranteed fancy close care for your elders in case you wont keep them around'.

Not sure if I am making myself clear here, not very good at it, but short version I am a libertarian . (a generally quiet one)

[pennywise]

Princess Perky: on the education issue of government assistance. The thinking behind this is if you get a good education you get a good job and become a good taxpaying citizen. I would not mind paying taxes for YOU to go to school and get a good degree. Sounds like both you and your spouse qualify for Pell grants or other assistance. Please consider this. This would not be stealing from others, it is borrowing and you will pay it back with interest (through the higher taxes you will pay). In addition, your higher education will assist your children. The rest I understand. Check with your local community college, trade schools (best to get a 4 year degree - use community college as a step to the 4 year college; if you don;t understand let us know and we will help you). there is training money available for a good reason, not like a second US or "recommended" exams to boost the physician's salary.

[PrincessPerky]

If I needed a college education I could get one, I could give up some luxuries, but I do not need one, I teach my children and we learn many things together. I am a SAHM, and a teacher of my children, niether one requires a degree . (though they certainly do require knowledge!)

DH has had many years of college if he wants to go get a degree to finish part of it he will, but right now his pay wouldn't improve for it and he would be missing an awful lot of time with his kids. (and again if he wanted one we could give up some luxuries to get one)

Oh and that friend of mine who will prolly take the govt assistance to go, her list of luxuries is longer than mine.

BTW, nothing against wanting a degree! I am not against wanting proof of hard work, and while some do 'float' thru college many learn quite a bit, and many professions require lots of 'book learning' which you might as well get in school, and I am glad of tests to hopefully prove you learned it (DRs, and the like) though I still reserve judgement on any new Dr till I see proof for myself! I am just against asking others to pay for it so that the student can enjoy luxuries.

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh for there to be more people in this world like you Princess.

[cercis]

I know this is an unpopular opinion but, here goes:

We live in a society for a reason. Part of being in that society is helping others and allowing them to help you.

The problem our society has is war spending - money going to companies in no-bid contracts, money being lost by those companies.

The other problem we have is corporate welfare. If this country paid for every single birth it would still be a drop in the bucket compared to how much we pay in corporate welfare. This country is still subsidizing tobacco farming. Why? If the tobacco farms can't support themselves, maybe that would be a good thing?

I live in an area that grows a lot of sugarcane. They do not actually make any money from their crop. They grow at a loss but the gov't gives them so many subsidies that they profit very well.

We could provide health care for every single person in the country - good healthcare and it would cost less than the money we spend to help pay CEO's multimillion dollar salaries (and don't kid yourself, it's the corporate welfare that allows those companies to pay those insane salaries).

Also, for the amount most people are paying for healthcare, they'd see cost savings if it became federally funded. When I was paying for private health insurance I was paying 25% of my take home pay for insurance. Even if they raised taxes to 50% to cover universal health, I'd come out better as would most people. The only people who wouldn't are the people making $200k or more.

[meaghanchan]

I agree with you Cercis. I grew up in a socialist country and living in the US I have never really understood all the "SOCIALISM BAD!!" I would always hear. The United States is the only industrialized, modern country that does not provide health care for all its citizens. There are a great many people who work hard, work 40 hours a week, and are just in jobs that don't provide health care. I think one of the reasons the arts fare so badly in this country is that no matter what kind of art you do, you nearly always have to pay for your own health insurance. It's tempting just to get a 'normal office job' even though, working for 40 hours a week in front of a computer, I feel like that's what I do have...

Anyway, you're right, doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion on these boards.

[Bruce Wayne]

It is an issue of choice. If people want to give to charitable causes, that's fine, it's their choice. If people want to recieve charitable donations that's also their choice. What is wrong is being forced to give to charitable causes whether you agree with them or not.

Cercis, I agree that corporate welfare is just as bad as social welfare. If a company cannot exist by its profits then it shouldn't exist at all.

As a Briton every person in the country pays around 40% of their income in taxes. I've never used the health system once yet have paid thousands towards it.

We have state funded education in Britain too, so each child in the country gets a minimum of 11 years education. If they leave school unable to command a decent wage then thats just tough. You had your chance, why should those of us that work then support your life and raise your kids?

The only free society is one where each individual has full control over their own lives. If they have to rely on the charity of others for their life then this should be a volunary act. All a government should do is provide a safe environment to live their life, an opportunity to be happy if you will. They shouldn't try to make everyone happy.

Both nature and human society is an incredibly complex and wonderful thing. It operates on an emergent theory of bottom up management. Look at nature. Every creature and species living for their own end, they don't have governments trying to control things and yet nature thrives. Even Chernobyl is now a thriving nature reserve.

No one has the right to dictate how any other should live their life because no one knows what is best for another individual. This isn't some kind of Sim City video game, this is real life, with real people, all of whom are born onto this planet as individuals, unique and amazing.

Let them stay that way and look after their own lives. That's what I call freedom.

[meaghanchan]

The problem is that different people start in different places. I grew up in a home where education was valued. Going to college was very important, doing well in school was very important. I was reading before I got into kindergarten, my parents always helped me with their homework. I graduated college, and if my job doesn't give me health insurance, well, that's kind of my own problem for choosing the field I did.

I have a friend who is a teacher in middle school. Most of the kids he teaches don't have the advantages I had. You can not get the same amount of learning/skills out of your education when your family is homeless or your mother is addicted to crack cocaine. You've got bigger things to worry about then your multiplication tables. And when you don't have access to health care-- when you have to worry every time you get sick because you can't afford to go to the doctor-- don't tell me that you're in the same position starting out in life as someone who can go to the doctor every time they have a cough.

It's easy to say 'everyone should pay their own way' when you do have health insurance. I have yet to see someone who doesn't espouse that opinion.

[Bruce Wayne]

Originally Posted by meaghanchan

The problem is that different people start in different places. I grew up in a home where education was valued. Going to college was very important, doing well in school was very important. I was reading before I got into kindergarten, my parents always helped me with their homework. I graduated college, and if my job doesn't give me health insurance, well, that's kind of my own problem for choosing the field I did.

I have a friend who is a teacher in middle school. Most of the kids he teaches don't have the advantages I had. You can not get the same amount of learning/skills out of your education when your family is homeless or your mother is addicted to crack cocaine. You've got bigger things to worry about then your multiplication tables. And when you don't have access to health care-- when you have to worry every time you get sick because you can't afford to go to the doctor-- don't tell me that you're in the same position starting out in life as someone who can go to the doctor every time they have a cough.

It's easy to say 'everyone should pay their own way' when you do have health insurance. I have yet to see someone who doesn't espouse that opinion.

Two things to consider.

1. I'm not suggesting that charity should be outlawed but that it should be a personal choice rather than a mandatory one. It is quite possible that there would be free schools or free hospitals operated on a charitable basis for anyone to use.

2. There is an assumption that everyone should succeed. This simply isn't possible and there will always be those that are better and those that are worse. This is a natural thing and indeed evolution works on this uneven distribution of skills.

The main point for me is that people should take responsibility for their own life first and foremost and take pride in doing the very best that they can with their life. If you think about it the chances of each of us being born are absolutely miniscule yet here we are. So you sure shouldn't complain about your circumstances because you can achieve great things if you try hard enough. If some people have poor lives because they don't try then I have no sympathy for them.

[PrincessPerky]

Originally Posted by meaghanchan

... You can not get the same amount of learning/skills out of your education when your family is homeless or your mother is addicted to crack cocaine. You've got bigger things to worry about then your multiplication tables. ...

Exactly, life liberty and pursuit of happiness should cover helping hcildren in abusive situations and should cover food and neccessities. It IS a MUCH bigger issue when your mom is on crack than multiplication tables (when was the last time you multiplied without a calculator or computer?)

BTW I am only 4 years into having healthcare, I held the same opinions 4 years ago. I would only take tax money if it was life or death, so the ear infection I fought alone, the many other minor colds, flu, coughs ect, I fought withough any tax money. When I got married and children were in the making, I got health insurance, I gave up a couple luxuries to get it. But I feel maternity care, and pediatric visits are worth it. (K so maybe my priorities were a bit mixed before, but that is a teen for ya)

Oh and corporate welfare is a problem. But this was started about healthcare, which is a individual thing. And drop in the pan or no, it is still my money being abused. They only thing I disasgree with in your post is that healthcare would be cheaper if we made it a full monopoly, and that since cheaper we should all just let it happen. I fully agree that no one should pay tobacco farmers a dime! (and all the other stuff)

I have met many people form poor and terrible beginings who pulled above it all and tried their best to achieve what they truly wanted in life. I have also met many in affluent, all the advantages you could ask for, and yet they fail to manage their own lives, sinking to the ranks of homeless sometimes. It is all about effort, and willingness to do what it takes - to achieve what you want, I don't want to be bill gates, not my thing, I want to be a good mother and raise my children - without going into any more debt, and hopefully with some savings to pay for my DHs retirement.

BUT you still need security, LIFE LIBERTY and the PURSUIT (not guarantee) of happiness. They put that in their for a reason. Yet the vast majority of Americans forgets the rights are only for life, ect, not perfect life, not easy life, not no work life, not free ride life, nope just life. So yeah I will pay for life or death situations, but no I do not want to pay for your US, nor for your water birth, or your epidural, or your extra time in the hospital, or any cosmetic dental work, or spare tranks so you don't have the 'stress' of that novcane needle. Sorry, I wont ask you to pay for mine either.