How much tax..

[PrincessPerky]

I have to agree with bruce, and I am talking about American schools .

We havn't yet come to the point where ALL schools are bad, nor have we got public health care, but I do think it is comming with the current, "get the govt to fix the problem" opinions of many.

10% is a simple easy to remember number, not an actual use me number, if 5% goes to income tax then I guess it is 45-75% in sneaky ways, I belive the word sneaky was missed by you.

The fact that a flate rate of say 17% would not cover govt costs now is a fact, the opinion that the flate rate doesn't need to pay current govt costs is an opinion. My opinion.

The fact that the govt wants billions of dollers for billions of misc pet projects is a fact, the opinion that it is wrong is an opinion, my opinion.

The fact that the general consensus of polls is 'the govt should do something about the trials of the poor' is a fact (course it is a fact of others opinions) The opinion that people would reach out to help if there was no assumption that the govt would/could do it all, is an opinion, my opinion.

Sorry bout the short post but it is obvious to me my method of explaining things does not change your bias, so I will save myself the effort. (not to mention I have a kid or two to educate, and I guess I chose to spend the loot to do it on my own , course I firmly believe it will save me in the long run, in the short term I am low on cash and time.)

Since so few of us enjoy debating, and so many do not, is there a way we can get a debate sub group?

[Bruce Wayne]

I'd be interested in a debating sub-group

[jmjj215]

As long as it stays a debate, and doesn't turn personal. A few times forumers have started attacking people personally b/c of their views - which should be avoided.

[34saving]

Debate is always good but you're right that we need to be careful to be civil (some message boards are horrible!). Maybe it should be in a whole different category (like Bruce suggested) so somebody that accidently asks about a contraversial topic doesn't get hammered.

[VJW]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne

I'll be blunt. The state provided health and education facilities are pretty poor. The government keeps taxing more and more and more and more of this tax is wasted in beauocracy. It's wasted because there is no choice or competition. I've worked in schools before and it's a turgid experience. I'm afraid that paying twice for one service isn't any kind of choice that I know of.

The socialized healthcare system in Britain is a disaster. Thankfully, nobody in America has ever advocated adopting a socialized healthcare system.

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[VJW]

Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

We havn't yet come to the point where ALL schools are bad

Hardly.

I don’t know where you’re residing, but nationally:

* High school completion rates, at roughly 90 percent in 2000, as well as college graduation rates, were at the HIGHEST LEVEL IN HISTORY.

* One in four adult Americans has at least a bachelor's degree – the highest percentage IN THE WORLD (and the percentage keeps getting higher).

* A larger percentage of twenty-two-year-olds receive degrees in math, science, or engineering in the United States than in any of our nation's major economic competitors.

* According to a national poll conducted by the Gallup Organization, when parents were asked about the particular school that their oldest child attended, 62 percent said the school earned an A or B.

Therefore, where we are willing to spend the money and resources, we can and do have the best public schools IN THE WORLD.

10% is a simple easy to remember number, not an actual use me number, if 5% goes to income tax then I guess it is 45-75% in sneaky ways, I belive the word sneaky was missed by you.

Sorry, but the fact is that NOBODY in America is paying anywhere CLOSE to 45% of their income in taxes.

The fact that a flate rate of say 17% would not cover govt costs now is a fact, the opinion that the flate rate doesn't need to pay current govt costs is an opinion. My opinion.

And you certainly are entitled to it, but you still haven’t explained HOW.

The fact that the general consensus of polls is 'the govt should do something about the trials of the poor' is a fact (course it is a fact of others opinions) The opinion that people would reach out to help if there was no assumption that the govt would/could do it all, is an opinion, my opinion.

And has been proven wrong historically.

Sorry bout the short post but it is obvious to me my method of explaining things does not change your bias

What “bias” ? Where would you get such an idea ? I’m merely presenting the documentable facts. If I’m stating an opinion, it will be labeled so (assuming it isn’t blatantly obvious).

:]

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[jmjj215]

Hey VJW, did you catch that cover article in the most recent issue of Fortune magazine? Your stat about our % of 22 yr olds being highest in math, engineering, etc. really surprised me. The article didn't talk percentages but just shear volume of engineers (tech educations) that are coming out of India/China is totally stomping our numbers into the ground. This makes sense, since we're a fraction of those populations...

Anyway, I was curious if you had read it and what your thoughts were on the concerns brought up in that article.

[VJW]

No I didn’t see it. Is this the issue ?:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/information/currentissue


As to the twenty-two-year-olds with degrees in math, science, or engineering, of course in raw numbers other countries would have larger totals, but as you mentioned, our population is but a fraction of those you cited. That’s why the stat is as a percentage of the respective populations. Apples to apples is the only possible manner in which to make such a comparison.

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[jeffrey]

Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

Since so few of us enjoy debating, and so many do not, is there a way we can get a debate sub group?

Hmmmm, I'll have to think about that.

My gutt opinion is that everyone is old enough to debate without it getting personal. If they aren't and therefore a debate area is needed, then my concern would be when debates get heated in the one area, then they are bound to carry over to other threads outside the area.

Will talk with Nate about it - and if there are posts that seem to be out of line and personally attacking instead of debating, let me know - the one thing that I really have enjoyed about these forums is everyone's tolerance of other's opinions while still being able to give their own and not having every thread turn into a name calling free for all. I plan to do my best to keep the forums that way.

[jmjj215]

Originally Posted by VJW

No I didn’t see it. Is this the issue ?:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/information/currentissue


As to the twenty-two-year-olds with degrees in math, science, or engineering, of course in raw numbers other countries would have larger totals, but as you mentioned, our population is but a fraction of those you cited. That’s why the stat is as a percentage of the respective populations. Apples to apples is the only possible manner in which to make such a comparison.

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It's the one before that, w/ Uncle Sam being picked on by a China guy at the beach.

[VJW]

OK.

Several key points of Mr. Colvin’s article are incorrect.

* He states:

“Respectable analysts believe it’s possible—not certain, but possible—that the U.S. standard of living, after decades of steady ascent, could stall or even begin to decline.”

After decade after decade of a rising Standard of Living since the Great Depression of the ‘30s, the Standard of Living of the vast overwhelming majority of American workers DECLINED by close to 20% during the twelve years of Reagan/Bush. This is straight from the Real Average Weekly Earnings data released by Poppy Bush’s White House Council of Economic Advisors.


* He states:

“China will produce about 3.3 million college graduates this year, India 3.1 million (all of them English-speaking), the U.S. just 1.3 million. In engineering, China’s graduates will number over 600,000, India’s 350,000, America’s only about 70,000.”

As I previously outlined, as a percentage of our respective populations, the U.S. has a larger number of twenty-two-year-olds receiving degrees in math, science, or engineering than any of our nation's major economic competitors.


* He states:

“Some economists believe they see it happening already. They note that something extremely odd occurred in the U.S. economy last year: Average compensation, including pay and benefits, fell. That is a rare event; the last time it happened was 14 years ago.”

No, Average Compensation fell in 2001, 2002, 2003, AND 2004, and will likely fall again in 2005.


* He states:

“The unemployment rate was low and falling.”

The Unemployment Rate fell, not because more jobless American workers went back to work, but because more jobless American workers are no longer counted as Long-term Unemployment skyrockets.


* He states:

“Our fourth-graders are among the world’s best in math and science, but by ninth grade they’ve fallen way behind.”

A myth.

Other countries separate out the students that are deemed appropriate to go on to attend universities, while the others are tracked into the trades and other job categories. Therefore, that comparison he writes about between our ninth-graders and other countries ninth-graders is invalid.


The rest of the article, in which he writes of problems with outsourcing and infrastructure, is accurate, but his prognosis remains faulty.

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[jmjj215]

As I read it I was thinking about all of the things you would disagree with. I did miss the last point, but other than that I was spot on